Do you need a University Degree to be considered a developer

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debonair

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Do you need a university degree to be considered a good developer? would you hire one? thoughts and comments...?
 
only if you're a total dumb ass who can't (even if he tried) figure things out logically...
 
No you don't, although South African employers are incredibly closed-minded about this. Very often you won't even get a foot in the door without a tertiary qualification no matter how much experience you've got.

In Europe (specifically the UK) your qualifications mean little and experience is everything. I think the reason for that is that so many people go to university in Europe that using a degree as a measure of someone's worth has kind of lost its use because it's nothing exceptional to have a degree.
 
The point is not having a degree. The point is that you can function in a social environment and interact with different individuals, work under pressure and deadlines...

That is what a degree means, not you are a expert in the specific field.
 
All those that are knocking degrees, do any of you have them??? I doubt it.

But answering your question: No, you do not need a degree.

But, without a degree you are at a disadvantage regardless of your location or language (code). That is why I'm doing my BSc with UNISA. As a developer I've found that my UNISA studies are helping me the most - 2yrs with UNISA vs 22yrs developing (mostly as a hobby since I was 12).

A degree helps set the foundations and assists you in thinking more like a developer. If you have the opportunity to study - do it.
 
cbrunsdonza said:
All those that are knocking degrees, do any of you have them??? I doubt it.

But answering your question: No, you do not need a degree.

But, without a degree you are at a disadvantage regardless of your location or language (code). That is why I'm doing my BSc with UNISA. As a developer I've found that my UNISA studies are helping me the most - 2yrs with UNISA vs 22yrs developing (mostly as a hobby since I was 12).

A degree helps set the foundations and assists you in thinking more like a developer. If you have the opportunity to study - do it.
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no I don't, but my "hobby" only lasted 3 years before I started developing professionally, from there I've built 9 years professional working experience.

IMO, someone who goes through the trouble of asking questions (and have working experience) instead of being "degree smart" is worth a lot more to a company than someone with a degree and (for example) 2 years worth of experience.

But I can't show you the Matrix Neo...
 
As an example of what I'm talking about.

Degree Smart Boy only does what he gets told. No innovation. If someone asks him to innovate, he will. He will also make sure he'll try the most complicated solution first, not thinking of any future expansions or impact on performance as data grows (as an example)

The "KISS" methodology is usually thrown out of the window. Why? "Because I have a degree from a varsity and we did artificial intelligence and and and and"

Simply, they *need* a challenge, so instead of thinking of anything else, they'll create a challenge for themselves, focusing on one specific project/component instead of asking questions.

Another example.

Client wants button in black, but shows an example of the layout in green. Designer doesn't question this and only does it in green, even though the client wants it in black and said it several times via email and "priority" lists. No questions asked... not even in confusion.

That is a perfect example of where I'm trying to get at.

I go to sleep thinking about code and wondering how much more simpler I can do things.

One of my clients recently told me her 3yo can navigate/edit the website I built for them.... and guess how much maintenance it is? Almost ****all. It's literally 2 pages, but with some url rewriting done, appears to be several different sections in all.

*maybe* 500 lines of code (excluding html)

And it'll take me 10 minutes to sort out a problem, compared to the **** storms I got from DEGREE-IN-HAND mother****ers who doesn't even know the basics of handling dates!? or what FTP is and how it works? (web dev POV here)
 
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I've found most people who have been trained to do something, can only do it that way... basically, if the computer says "No", they're stuck.
 
xrapidx said:
I've found most people who have been trained to do something, can only do it that way... basically, if the computer says "No", they're stuck.
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+1

I lost count how many times I said, "If the computer tells you you're wrong, you're wrong" and "It's a PC, you tell it what to do, of course it's ****ing possible"

And these guys have work experience + degrees

don't get me wrong, I'm doing my degree as well, but I did it gat-kant-vorentoe because I knew i'd gain more insight into things than a book would tell me, especially in business
 
AcidRaZor said:
Degree Smart Boy only does what he gets told.
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BS

Given they both have experience... I'll take someone with a degree over one that doesn't any day (doesn't have to be a 4yr hons degree either... part time UNISA is fine).

Then again.. I don't just want coders, I want people who understand "the other stuff" as well, and can jump onto a finance app without asking what a balance sheet is, or an analytical application without asking what a mean is.

Don't knock a degree until you have one.

EDIT: you're doing one now... what's wrong with degree first?
 
xrapidx said:
I've found most people who have been trained to do something, can only do it that way... basically, if the computer says "No", they're stuck.
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+ infinity

I used to do systems support, and I cannot agree more.

The mindset of alot of self-trained people are to solve problems all by themselves.
 
Gotta agree with xrapidx. I thinking being able to progam without a fancy degree makes a person more valuable (to me) than someone with a bunch of qualifications. That's not to say people with a degree are incompetent/useless. The self-taught ouks are more resourceful/persistent
 
shogun said:
EDIT: you're doing one now... what's wrong with degree first?
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In my situation I didn't have the opportunity to go to varsity when I graduated high school. But I learned more working than I would have learning from books really.

It's practice first then theory (sort of?) not sure if I explain myself well enough, but guys graduation from varsity with a degree enters the working world and can't do simple programming related things.

And like you said, you'd like the guy to have an understanding of how everything works, and that's exactly why I say a degree isn't all that. Depending what degree you do, you're either a Jack of all trades or a specialist. I choose to be a specialist that knows a **** load about everything :D

I went to a technical high school (did electronics/maths/physics) that also gave finance stuff, what you call it in English... basically what you mentioned, can't remember the subject name now.

I knew what a balance sheet was and worked before I even began programming really. It's only recently (like in the last 5 years) where I had to do a lot of financial system integration where I learned the finer points of *what* a general ledger is and how journals work and what should happen when etc...

Partying or experience. I choose you EXPERIENCE ;)

There are some grads who knows their ****, but 90% of them are dumbasses :D
 
AcidRaZor said:
90% of them are dumbasses :D
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I think it's closer to 10%. Those that are dumbasses don't generally make it to 3rd or 4th year, especially if there's Math involved. It thins them out pretty quickly. Ask any UCT students.

Sure there are those that get the degree and suck at developing... they tend not to be developers and mistake becoming an analyst as an easy way out (big mistake... a good analyst is worth their weight in gold, but these peeps don't tend to make good analysts).

That being said, the peeps I saw in 3rd and 4th yr at UCT were generally ace.
 
Lots of people knocking degrees here but I was already pretty good at programming before I even went to University, I could easily have gone into the industry but I learned lots from University.

I don't really understand the whole if the computer says no they can't do it part because we never learned anything concrete at University.

What I mean is we spent our entire degree learning theory that is applicable to any programming language or computer.

That is the point of Computer Science, it's not at all about computers it's more about theory around problem solving using efficient, computable and deterministic methods.

If you got a University guy who could do it only 1 way he/she either studied at a bad institute or didn't understand at all what was going on.

I see it as follows, the good about having a degree: You have something on paper which a lot of people want, this BS about people in UK hiring without degrees is not true, I'm sorry but I've talked to lots of guys who told me the decent institutions don't except anyone without a degree, sometimes not without a Masters degree.

Secondly it shows that you have at least some problem solving ability, that is if you studied at a decent institution, because there is a lot of mathematics involved, primarily calculus, algebra and lots of discrete mathematics.

The bad: After University year 1 very little will be of use in the SA industry. Most guys don't give a sh#t that a linked list outperforms an array list in this or that operation. Or that you can program a Neural Network or know why the final keyword on a Java method is significant & what performance and usability implications it has. They just want you to finish it.

That said there are more useless guys in the IT industry WITHOUT degrees than WITH degrees, because every Tom, Dick & Harry wants to become a programmer these days.
 
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Not mocking it - just speaking from personal experience - if you have a look at the threads I've started you'll see there's one about me wanting to go to Uni - I just can't get in :p

Most of the people I've come across in the industry that have been formally trained, stick to the textbook - and if someone hasn't already written it down, it can't be done.
 
No....

debonair said:
Do you need a university degree to be considered a good developer? would you hire one? thoughts and comments...?
Click to expand...

No! You don't need a degree to be a good CODER. What you need is a creative open mind not a history of what has been done.
Some good coders strangely do posses Bsc in pure science / engineering or BI (Bachelor of Innovation), may be that help them to jump start their inventive mind.
 
Thanks for your comments... I am thinking of going the unisa route. I guess it wouldn't hurt to get one. Most jobs that I see advertised are for a developer with at least a Bsc and these recruiters don't look at your cv if you don't have one...
 
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