Question for TivoZA and other Home Theater Boffins: CRT Projection

I've spent the last few weeks researching my planned HTPC-driven home theater. I was comparing DLP and CRT projectors when I stumbled onto the world of CRT front projection:

http://www.curtpalme.com/index.shtml

According to scores of seemingly objective evaluations that I've read the picture that gets pumped out of these things is simply phenomenal. Here's some screenshots from one of the "budget" models, a Barco 800:

http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=107

In fact, the jury is out as to whether there is ANY CRT or DLP projector out there at ANY price that can beat these old beasts. I've seen a comparison of the Sony Ruby (pretty much the Rolls Royce of LCD projectors going for north of $8000 US) against the Marquee 9500 CRT and the jury was split as to which is best. Not bad for a 10 year old projector! The mid- to high level CRT projectors can handle 1080p, by the way and they'll set you back slightly more than R20K.

My question is this: Does anybody on here have any experience on these CRT front projectors and, more importantly, know of a source for obtaining these in SA? I've searched high and low and came up with nothing. If nobody can point me in the right direction I'll probably have to fly one of these things in from the US and, considering that they easily weigh 100kg, this is bound to dent my wallet badly.

Any help much appreciated.

StrongTurd said:

I've spent the last few weeks researching my planned HTPC-driven home theater. I was comparing DLP and CRT projectors when I stumbled onto the world of CRT front projection:

http://www.curtpalme.com/index.shtml

Click to expand...

I'd agree that CRT projectors are top notch when it comes to quality but there are many factors you need to consider when going this route.

Firstly, unless you primarily intend on watching HD-DVD/Blu-Ray content or playing PC games you will see little benefit. DSTV is not upto the task of being projected onto large areas and doing so will just highlight the reduced broadcast quality that we receive (see the "HDTV Tv Cards" thread for more on this).

Another thing to keep in mind is that CRT projectors don't support digital inputs (e.g. DVI, HDMI), as such a RGB converter box is required but these may not satisfy HDCP requirements resulting in your picture quality being downgraded.

Aside from having high quality input, using a CRT projector really requires the use of a dark room as stray light tends to result in a washed out screen appearance.

From the looks of it, it seems as if the CRT projectors aren't PAL friendly (or at least aren't 50Hz friendly). Below are some quotes from the "crt projectors and uk hdtv" thread on AVForums:

fishlogan said:

in australia we have very large porch settings for the hd 1080i and 720p which almost makes it unuseable for crt projectors

Click to expand...

Barcoing Mad said:

Not in the least bit amazed having mucked around with a few DVD players with HDMI carrying 50Hz 720p and 1080i...it's almost as if the standard was set to screw analogue conversion. The 60Hz standards are fine, however.

Click to expand...

Parmenion said:

With a Sky HD box it displays all the problems that other Barco owners have experienced ie a watchable picture but one that is pushed way over to the left, leaving about a fifth of the screen on the right completely black.

Click to expand...

Short of spending R100 000 on a CRT projector and a high quality home theatre setup, including a scaler, high quality cabling, etc, I think you would get far better value for money by spending wisely on a setup to suite your particular needs. You could get away with spending about R30 000 on good quality equipment and still get an amazing setup providing excellent quality output.

StrongTurd said:

According to scores of seemingly objective evaluations that I've read the picture that gets pumped out of these things is simply phenomenal. Here's some screenshots from one of the "budget" models, a Barco 800:

http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=107

In fact, the jury is out as to whether there is ANY CRT or DLP projector out there at ANY price that can beat these old beasts. I've seen a comparison of the Sony Ruby (pretty much the Rolls Royce of LCD projectors going for north of $8000 US) against the Marquee 9500 CRT and the jury was split as to which is best. Not bad for a 10 year old projector! The mid- to high level CRT projectors can handle 1080p, by the way and they'll set you back slightly more than R20K.

Click to expand...

If you are determined to get a CRT projector, rather then spending $14 000 on a budget projector ($700 on eBay), it might be worth contacting Ster Kinekor or Nu Metro and try to source a 1.3K (i.e. 1280x1024) projector from them. At R50 000 it's significantly cheaper, shipping shouldn't be a problem and you're bound to be able to get a bit more local support for the units they use.

Very detailed; thanks a lot. I'm off to work and I'll have more time to digest your reply when I get back tonight.

Much appreciated.

As TivoZA mentioned, CRTs are not so happy with digital inputs (DVI/HDMI), and you'll struggle to find one capable of 50Hz high def.

In addition, while the colour etc. of these units is good, there are some things to remember:
1. They are a b!tch to set up, requiring skills that are difficult to find in SA.
2. They suffer from screen burn (even worse than plasma displays)
3. They're huge
4. The tubes have a limited lifespan and are expensive (and there are 3 of them).


I would ignore TivoZA's suggestion of a 1.3K. Why not get a 2K home unit? Something like this: http://www.ultimateavmag.com/videoprojectors/1205sony/
This uses SXRD (Silicon Crystal [X-tal] Reflective Display) technology and image is awesome up to 1080p.

I concur (as if that was needed, lol)
crt projectors offer much better picture quality...luckily for me, the pub I go to has 3 lcd projectors and one humungous crt projector, and they all play the same material so it is easy to compare the differences. the crt leads by abig margin, however the lcd projectors arent "bad".

things to consider:
weight...very heavy and bulky.
limited tube lifespan
setting up is an absolute pain (you can download manuals for barco projectors and they explain the setup procedure, so you can get familiar with it)
it neeeds resetting up after a while, typically once a year
even if it is setup correctly, shipping it somewhere tends to mess up the setup up, requiring more work
if you change the focal distance, you need to set it up again (typically, move to a new house with a different sized room)
the tubes have a limited lifespan, there are 3 of them, they cost $$$$$ biiig time.

ultimately, crts are better than lcds, but maybe they should be considered studio use, and not home use, due to the associated costs involved.

Yeah, I appreciate what you guys are saying. I have picked up more or less the same issues while surfing the CRT forums. However, I do believe that most of those things I'll be able to overcome.

One thing that I've picked up that differs from what you guys are saying is the issue of tube life. From what I understand the tube life (when compared to HID lamps in "normal" projectors) is actually a big advantage of CRT projection. When your tubes are properly set up and provided that you don't drive them too hard (brightness level and convergence angles), these tubes are supposed to give you AT LEAST a guranteed 8 - 10 000 hours. Considering my vieving habits it'll take me a lifetime to get to 10 000 hours. I see tube life as a major selling point of CRT projectors.

Also, it seems like the red tube almost never fails (when cared for properly). When you get a CRT with brand new green and blue tubes, you're set for many years. I'm currently eyeing the Barco Graphics 808 on this page, for instance:

http://www.curtpalme.com/CRTforSale_Intermediate.shtm

I'm looking at the one that's going for $3500 which features brand new P16 Panasonic tubes. I'll probably expire before the tubes do.

The main thing that you guys pointed out that worries me, though, is the 50 Hz issue. I'll definitely have to delve deeper into that.

if the tubes are new, and setting it up doesnt deter you, and you have the space for it, then you WONT regret it

I think our concerns are mainly based around the cost of the tubes, plus the fact that most crt projectors arent used in homes, they are used in pubs and clubs etc and due to that fact tend to have many hours logged on them...most that I have seen for sale have got failing tubes...but if the unit you want has got new/semi-new tubes (verifiable) then you shouldnt have nay problems.

Thanks Werner, I was thinking as much.

StrongTurd said:

Yeah, I appreciate what you guys are saying. I have picked up more or less the same issues while surfing the CRT forums. However, I do believe that most of those things I'll be able to overcome.

One thing that I've picked up that differs from what you guys are saying is the issue of tube life. From what I understand the tube life (when compared to HID lamps in "normal" projectors) is actually a big advantage of CRT projection. When your tubes are properly set up and provided that you don't drive them too hard (brightness level and convergence angles), these tubes are supposed to give you AT LEAST a guranteed 8 - 10 000 hours. Considering my vieving habits it'll take me a lifetime to get to 10 000 hours. I see tube life as a major selling point of CRT projectors.

Also, it seems like the red tube almost never fails (when cared for properly). When you get a CRT with brand new green and blue tubes, you're set for many years. I'm currently eyeing the Barco Graphics 808 on this page, for instance:

http://www.curtpalme.com/CRTforSale_Intermediate.shtm

I'm looking at the one that's going for $3500 which features brand new P16 Panasonic tubes. I'll probably expire before the tubes do.

The main thing that you guys pointed out that worries me, though, is the 50 Hz issue. I'll definitely have to delve deeper into that.

Click to expand...

You're not going to have a problem with 50Hz in standard definition on this model, but you're also not going to get component input. Remember that the design for this projector is now over 12 years old. I'd be wary of spending R25K plus shipping on something like this myself. While the CRT projectors give a great contrast and good colour fidelity, with his one you are limiting yourself to SD (maybe with line doubling) without progressive scan, limited input capability, at least 10 year old electronics (meaning power supply, mainboard etc) with limited local service, and definitely not future proofed (no HDMI). Although it seems that this projector an sync to High Definition signals, I'm unsure how you're going to get it in without a component input.

Thanks for your kind answer, arf9999.

It doesn't seem that getting a CRT projector connected to a PC is such a big problem. All you need is a VGA to RGBHV cable. There's a picture of one on this page:

http://www.lynxxx.nl/barco/requirements.asp

What seems to be a potential showstopper, though, is the 50 Hz PAL signal. It would be pointless paying that much for the projector and then be unable to display HDTV content on it. I'll have to look into this closely.

If I may ask you this: What sort of display (front or rear projector, DLP, LCD or CRT) or flat panel screen (LCD or Plasma) would you suggest I get for under R20K, if possible.

StrongTurd said:

Thanks for your kind answer, arf9999.

It doesn't seem that getting a CRT projector connected to a PC is such a big problem. All you need is a VGA to RGBHV cable. There's a picture of one on this page:

http://www.lynxxx.nl/barco/requirements.asp

What seems to be a potential showstopper, though, is the 50 Hz PAL signal. It would be pointless paying that much for the projector and then be unable to display HDTV content on it. I'll have to look into this closely.

If I may ask you this: What sort of display (front or rear projector, DLP, LCD or CRT) or flat panel screen (LCD or Plasma) would you suggest I get for under R20K, if possible.

Click to expand...

Under 20K? that's not really fair... your Barco would cost R30K+ after shipping, installation and accessories...

I'd consider the following:
1. Sony Grand Wega 50" rear projection (around R20K-25K) - LCD rear Projection
2. DLP front projection - Optoma? (I don't know of any models in particular)
3. Sony SXRD front Projector - (around R65K)
4. SXRD rear projector (BRAVIA branded) due in September 60" around R45K
5. Hitachi 42" HD Plasma... (1080 res)- don't know price
6. 40" LCD Panel TV... Gatecrasher got a Sony V40 for R26K..

see this post: http://www.mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?p=622569#post622569

How about this?

Azrael, that sounds like a good deal. Only thing is, that projector has only just been released in Japan. It'll take a while to make it over here.

Once again thanks arf9999, I'll be analyzing your recommendations in detail.

Sony VPL-VW100 SXRD Video Projector

Hi All

Just thought i would let you know, i recently installed one of these Sony projectors and a "Stuart" Filmscreen in an HD post production facillity for client screenings. WOW. It is the most amazing image i have seen out of a projector. Incredible resolution and colors. I used to own a Sony 1020QM CRT some years ago and my next door neighbour had a barco 701s and this machine would blow both out the water. If i had the money i would buy one. The only downside i believe, is the running cost, the lamp is VERY expensive.


Regards

Toup

Not to mention the initial cost of that thing!

According to my (very good) sources... Sony will be a releasing a couple of rear projection TVs using SXRD in the next month or so. Ballpark pricing seems to be around R45K (or less, I was told with a wink) for a 60" 1080p set.... The sets will be under the BRAVIA brand (not like the LCD Projector Grand Wega).