8 name changes for Cape roads

[VioAdmin]

If you hold that JS was a war mongering racist for opposing a genocidal regime, surely you hold that Mandela was far more of a war mongerer by opposing a much less brutal and non-genocidal regime? Or am I missing something?

Yes, you are missing the entire point of Mandela's campaign. Mandela was trying to free blacks(colored included) Indians and other races from the racist regime that was supported by people like Jan Smuts, true or not? This should end any and all discussions about who Mandela was compared to this racist known as Jan Smuts.

Mandela was adapting to the times, his actions were REACTIONS(secondary) to the racist/pro-apartheid ACTIONS(first)

Do you understand now? Let me know if you don't understand something.

 

[Nicodeamus]

...Are people in this thread reading some of these replies? I mean for the love of ALIENS. I can't even BELIEVE I am replying to this.

I mean, what school's did you guys go too? Did you learn ANYTHING about other cultures and races...At all? I hate to use stereotypes but one can safely assume you guys probably don't have many friends outside of your own race, you can deny it on these forums but lol, these are the type of things one who is not educated about others typically says.

It is YOU who needs to get over yourself. Every race was not treated the way the blacks were treated, not to this extent, this is the ENTIRE REASON we are having this discussion instead of discussing how whites were enslaved by blacks, right?

I have a feeling you are just repeating this statement because you have nothing else to say regarding this topic which I understand, what more can one really say?

O really, lets look at myself. I come from an Afrikaans/English home.

On my Afrikaans side, my dad has a German-jewish father and an Afrikaans mother. His Afrikaans granddad was tied to a tree the entire day during the Anglo-Boer war and was forced to pull the English wagons at night. All this while his younger brothers died in an British Concentration camps. So yes I can claim the victim card on that side.

His German-Jewish father had to flee Germany before Hitler became a badass. So I can claim oppression there. When he came to SA anti-Semitism was high in the country (fortunately a leader like Smuts denounced the Grey-shirt and Ossewabrandwag movements). So that is another line of <insert victim card here>.

Now lets look at the moms side, her grandparents were mainly Irish who came to SA to help fight the boer war, now I'm sure that she had family who suffered during the Irish Potato famine <bOOM Another oppression card right there>.
Now she also has English family, we all know that the English suffered oppression at the hands of the Romans. <Insert another victim card>

Now I also have some pure German descendants, they were oppressed by the Romans, the romans mainly kept them as slaves. In fact anyone with European decent nowadays probably had German decent, so they were also victims of slavery. Slavery in itself existed before mankind could even read or write, guessed who ended it though. "the evil west". They also ended "segregation, a ban on gay marriages, they promoted freedom of expression, all through the ideology of liberty! If anything you aught to thank the west for being progressive and seeing the error of their ways.

In fact name me one race that wasn't an oppressor and one that wasn't oppressed.

 

[Tassidar]

...Are people in this thread reading some of these replies? I mean for the love of ALIENS. I can't even BELIEVE I am replying to this.

I mean, what school's did you guys go too? Did you learn ANYTHING about other cultures and races...At all? I hate to use stereotypes but one can safely assume you guys probably don't have many friends outside of your own race, you can deny it on these forums but lol, these are the type of things one who is not educated about others typically says.

It is YOU who needs to get over yourself. Every race was not treated the way the blacks were treated, not to this extent, this is the ENTIRE REASON we are having this discussion instead of discussing how whites were enslaved by blacks, right?

I have a feeling you are just repeating this statement because you have nothing else to say regarding this topic which I understand, what more can one really say?

Perhaps a degree of self-reflection is necessary here. After WWII, when Japan had two atomic bombs dropped on it, they realised that they war-mongering culture had just harmed them. They became the post passive and industrially advanced people on the planet. Japenese companies like Toyota pioneered operations management, that are still the envy of the world.

Blaming other races for the failure of Africa, while being the easy option, will never allow Africans to move forward. As has been discussed often on this forum, Africans were an integral part of the slave trade, and the Westeners were the first culture ever to abolish slavery.

In the past 100 years there have been 3 instance of genocide in Europe that I can think of: Nazi Germany, Communist Russia under Stalin, and the Bosnian Genocide. In all cases, Europe opposed it and used the forces necessary to oppose the governments. In Africa, I can think of Rwanda, Zimbabwe, Sudan, Zaire. But rather than opposing the genocides, the AU remains in denial.

The fact that you refuse to respect Abe Lincoln (lets leave JS out the equation for a moment), just shows you to be resentful and highly ungrateful. In fact, it shows you are not a big enough person to acknowledge the contributions of others because of your own inherent racism. Moreover, you show little empathy for the times. You do not seem to be able to understand that the times those people lived in were very different from the times we live in.

It takes courage, and vision to oppose the thinking of the time, and I still maintain, Smuts and those who followed in his vein fought a vanguard action for human rights. Smuts as Wikipedia has pointed out was opposed to apartheid.

While you criticise Smuts for being paternalistic, I will remind you, that Africa remains in poverty, corruptions remain rife, genocide is still commonplace. By any standards, Africa is much less developed than the rest of the world, and since most countries have achieved independence, they have gone backwards in terms of human development. These are established facts. The evidence suggests that Smuts might not have been that wrong in his paternalistic attitude.

 

[daveza]

How exactly did YOU end up in South Africa if it was not for what happened in the past?(You should know what I am talking about)

No idea - my grandparents came here from the UK. Nothing more to it.

Oh it's in the past, forget the past

Nope, I never said forget the past. Just blend it with a bit of present and future. Nothing can be done about the past.

You should know that what blacks weren't through can not be compared to what other races have gone through.

Please, if we are talking about BS, that is enough methane to affect the ozone layer.

Africa continues to be a puppet of the EU

Africa has so much to offer it's own people. It's hardly the EU's fault that its people are being robbed blind by its own leaders, ours included.

 

[Tassidar]

Yes, you are missing the entire point of Mandela's campaign. Mandela was trying to free blacks(colored included) Indians and other races from the racist regime that was supported by people like Jan Smuts, true or not? This should end any and all discussions about who Mandela was compared to this racist known as Jan Smuts.

Mandela was adapting to the times, his actions were REACTIONS(secondary) to the racist/pro-apartheid ACTIONS(first)

Do you understand now? Let me know if you don't understand something.

Jan Smuts was trying also to free Jews from mass genocide of Nazis. Does this make him a war mongerer? Remeber, that YOU not ME referred to Smuts as a war mongerer. Quite simply if Smuts was a war mongerer for opposing genocide, the surely BY THE SAME LOGIC, Mandela was also a war mongerer, both were trying to free people from Racist / anti-semite attitudes. Where is the difference? Good for the Goose / Good for the Gander.

 

[Tassidar]

O really, lets look at myself. I come from an Afrikaans/English home.

On my Afrikaans side, my dad has a German-jewish father and an Afrikaans mother. His Afrikaans granddad was tied to a tree the entire day during the Anglo-Boer war and was forced to pull the English wagons at night. All this while his younger brothers died in an British Concentration camps. So yes I can claim the victim card on that side.

His German-Jewish father had to flee Germany before Hitler became a badass. So I can claim oppression there. When he came to SA anti-Semitism was high in the country (fortunately a leader like Smuts denounced the Grey-shirt and Ossewabrandwag movements). So that is another line of <insert victim card here>.

Now lets look at the moms side, her grandparents were mainly Irish who came to SA to help fight the boer war, now I'm sure that she had family who suffered during the Irish Potato famine <bOOM Another oppression card right there>.
Now she also has English family, we all know that the English suffered oppression at the hands of the Romans. <Insert another victim card>

Now I also have some pure German descendants, they were oppressed by the Romans, the romans mainly kept them as slaves. In fact anyone with European decent nowadays probably had German decent, so they were also victims of slavery. Slavery in itself existed before mankind could even read or write, guessed who ended it though. "the evil west". They also ended "segregation, a ban on gay marriages, they promoted freedom of expression, all through the ideology of liberty! If anything you aught to thank the west for being progressive and seeing the error of their ways.

In fact name me one race that wasn't an oppressor and one that wasn't oppressed.

Since you mentioned the potato famines: "How many potatoes does it take to kill an Irishman?"





Answer: "None"

Sick I know, but rather funny in a very perverse way.

 

[VioAdmin]

O really, lets look at myself. I come from an Afrikaans/English home.

On my Afrikaans side, my dad has a German-jewish father and an Afrikaans mother. His Afrikaans granddad was tied to a tree the entire day during the Anglo-Boer war and was forced to pull the English wagons at night. All this while his younger brothers died in an British Concentration camps. So yes I can claim the victim card on that side.

His German-Jewish father had to flee Germany before Hitler became a badass. So I can claim oppression there. When he came to SA anti-Semitism was high in the country (fortunately a leader like Smuts denounced the Grey-shirt and Ossewabrandwag movements). So that is another line of <insert victim card here>.

Now lets look at the moms side, his grandparents were mainly Irish who came to SA to help fight the boer war, now I'm sure that had family who suffered during the Irish Patato famine <bOOM Another oppression card right there>.
Now she also has English family, we all know that the English suffered oppression at the hands of the Romans. <Insert another victim card>

Now I also have some pure Germans, they were oppressed by the Romans, the romans mainly kept them as slaves. In fact anyone with European decent nowadays probably had German decent, so they were also victims of slavery. Slavery in itself existed before mankind could even read or write, guessed who ended it though. "the evil west". They also ended "segregation, a ban on gay marriages, they promoted freedom of expression, all through the ideology of liberty!

In fact name me one race that wasn't an oppressor and one that wasn't oppressed.

First of all, JEWISH is not a race, it is a religion, anyone can be Jewish regardless of race.

All of your examples are irrelevant to this topic, you are talking about Irish people, those are white, a lot of them just have to put on a hat or a ski mask and no one can tell the difference between an Irish man(other than his accent) and an English man. One cannot hide his race. I am sure you have heard this before, no?

I feel for your family though, no one should go through such BS but this is seriously not relevant to this discussion, your problems are not related to this topic, these are culture differences at best.

Also, you keep asking about every race was oppressed, who oppressed white people in general? When were they not allowed to do things based on THEIR RACE? When and where and why?

I hope you don't think Irish people are not white? lol...They are. I hope you don't think the "jewish" people were not white? They were/are(the majority of them are white).

So once again, I really think you need to read more things about other cultures cause you seem to have difficultly between race, cultures and now it seems religion.

 

[Tassidar]

First of all, JEWISH is not a race, it is a religion, anyone can be Jewish regardless of race.

All of your examples are irrelevant to this topic, you are talking about Irish people, those are white, a lot of them just have to put on a hat or a ski mask and no one can tell the difference between an Irish man(other than his accent) and an English man. One cannot hide his race. I am sure you have heard this before, no?

I feel for your family though, no one should go through such BS but this is seriously not relevant to this discussion, your problems are not related to this topic, these are culture differences at best.

Also, you keep asking about every race was oppressed, who oppressed white people in general? When were they not allowed to do things based on THEIR RACE? When and where and why?

I hope you don't think Irish people are not white? lol...They are. I hope you don't think the "jewish" people were not white? They were/are(the majority of them are white).

So once again, I really think you need to read more things about other cultures cause you seem to have difficultly between race, cultures and now it seems religion.

Oppression is oppression, regardless of race. I don't see that different race / religeon / or culture really makes that much of a difference.

 

[Nicodeamus]

I am sure if I look at everyone on this forum's family then we would probably find a similar story of people being oppressed in one way or another. On the topic of saying that the white race wasn't oppressed by another race, then I hope that you're aware that before the turn of this century the Afrikaners and English were defined in SA as two different races.

 

[VioAdmin]

Jan Smuts was trying also to free Jews from mass genocide of Nazis. Does this make him a war mongerer? Remeber, that YOU not ME referred to Smuts as a war mongerer. Quite simply if Smuts was a war mongerer for opposing genocide, the surely BY THE SAME LOGIC, Mandela was also a war mongerer, both were trying to free people from Racist / anti-semite attitudes. Where is the difference? Good for the Goose / Good for the Gander.

lol, clearly you have lost your plot man, it was a nice discussion but if this is your best reply, then we might as well just move on to a new topic.

Once again, Jews are not a difference race, a "Jew" is basically a white person today, right? (generally speaking) even though, anyone can be Jewish(the religion). They were killed because of their culture but a lot of them could also simply walk down the street and no one could tell if they were Jewish or not, want an example? Watch Inglourious Basterds starring Brad Pitt. It has a good history lesson as well.

So you have some things mixed up but I hope my posts have opened your mind a bit.

 

[VioAdmin]

Oppression is oppression, regardless of race. I don't see that different race / religeon / or culture really makes that much of a difference.

...This is not what is up for discussion? Who here challenged this?

I am saying this is not what we are discussing, someone quickly jumped to "Well my people have also suffered". I am getting lost already.

These are questions you don't have to ask or even state, everyone knows this.

The discussion here WAS RACE, not culture and not religion.

 

[Tassidar]

lol, clearly you have lost your plot man, it was a nice discussion but if this is your best reply, then we might as well just move on to a new topic.

Once again, Jews are not a difference race, a "Jew" is basically a white person today, right? (generally speaking) even though, anyone can be Jewish(the religion). They were killed because of their culture but a lot of them could also simply walk down the street and no one could tell if they were Jewish or not, want an example? Watch Inglourious Basterds starring Brad Pitt. It has a good history lesson as well.

So you have some things mixed up but I hope my posts have opened your mind a bit.

I have watched inglorious bastards. I hold that if thats you idea of a history lesson, then you are sadly in need of an education.

I'm afraid, sadly, you have convinced me of only one thing: that you are looking for reasons to believe that Africans have been persecuted, because that justifies that failure of Africa. For me it seems that you are determined to take the easy way out. To say: "it wasn't our fault", because ultimately that absolves Africans of responsiblity. It helps Africa avoid asking the hard questions and the self-reflection necessary to move on and develop. Unfortunately, that same attitude will leave Africa open for recolonisation in the future, either by China, India or again by the West.

I hold that the human rights record of Africans against Africans is generally worse than any other nation against Africa, including genocide, and involvement in the slave trade.

 

[Tassidar]

...This is not what is up for discussion? Who here challenged this?

I am saying this is not what we are discussing, someone quickly jumped to "Well my people have also suffered". I am getting lost already.

These are questions you don't have to ask or even state, everyone knows this.

The discussion here WAS RACE, not culture and not religion.

The discussion was about Jan Smuts not about race.

 

[VioAdmin]

The discussion was about Jan Smuts not about race.

Then lets get right back to Jan Smuts! Because the last few posts were literally getting personal lol

 

[Lounger]

Lie no 5: blacks can't be racist.


You can kinda understand why blacks and whites didn't get along back in the day.
Blacks obviously were indroctinated to think they were innocent victims and did no wrong.
Afrikaners and the English also had their issues.

Unfortunately this is so, but today's more 'civilized' generation can't imagine the reasons as being even remotely valid.

 

[VioAdmin]

I have watched inglorious bastards. I hold that if thats you idea of a history lesson, then you are sadly in need of an education.

I'm afraid, sadly, you have convinced me of only one thing: that you are looking for reasons to believe that Africans have been persecuted, because that justifies that failure of Africa. For me it seems that you are determined to take the easy way out. To say: "it wasn't our fault", because ultimately that absolves Africans of responsiblity. It helps Africa avoid asking the hard questions and the self-reflection necessary to move on and develop. Unfortunately, that same attitude will leave Africa open for recolonisation in the future, either by China, India or again by the West.

I hold that the human rights record of Africans against Africans is generally worse than any other nation against Africa, including genocide, and involvement in the slave trade.

I don't know where you are getting your glazed-BS from. Where and when did we start discussing the "failure of Africa"? Please link me to my OWN POST where we discuss the failures of Africa. If you are regarding to my statement which I said the EU is using the Africa as a puppet or my link to how France lives of Africa, that is not a discussion, if you want to discuss why Africa has failed I would be more than glad to trade talk, just start a new topic and let me know. I can defuse your thinking in that topic within minutes.

As for the rest of your glazed-bs post, it's also relating to the wrong topic, start a new thread and as I said, I would be more than GLAD to teach you a few things on why Africa is where it's at because you are completely and I mean completely way off.

 

[Lounger]

First of all, JEWISH is not a race, it is a religion, anyone can be Jewish regardless of race.

All of your examples are irrelevant to this topic, you are talking about Irish people, those are white, a lot of them just have to put on a hat or a ski mask and no one can tell the difference between an Irish man(other than his accent) and an English man. One cannot hide his race. I am sure you have heard this before, no?

I feel for your family though, no one should go through such BS but this is seriously not relevant to this discussion, your problems are not related to this topic, these are culture differences at best.

Also, you keep asking about every race was oppressed, who oppressed white people in general? When were they not allowed to do things based on THEIR RACE? When and where and why?

I hope you don't think Irish people are not white? lol...They are. I hope you don't think the "jewish" people were not white? They were/are(the majority of them are white).

So once again, I really think you need to read more things about other cultures cause you seem to have difficultly between race, cultures and now it seems religion.

Wow you are not that clued up on much! Of course Jews are a race - from the Middle East to be exact through the bloodline of many generations. We are however digressing again.

 

[daveza]

lol, I will assume this post is a joke or you are mentally handicapped.

Jews

This article is about the Jewish people. For their religion, law and culture, see Judaism.
"Jew" redirects here. For other uses of the term "Jew", see Jew (disambiguation).

The Jews (Hebrew: יְהוּדִים‎‎ ISO 259-3 Yhudim Israeli pronunciation [jehu'dim]), also known as the Jewish people, are a nation and ethnoreligious group originating in the Israelites or Hebrews of the Ancient Near East. The Jewish ethnicity, nationality, and religion are strongly interrelated, as Judaism is the traditional faith of the Jewish nation.

Sigh, now we are all going to have to abandon Wikipedia as it is mentally handicapped.

 

[VioAdmin]

Sigh, now we are all going to have to abandon Wikipedia as it is mentally handicapped.

lol, from your own Wikipedia quote, where does it mention about their race?

You should really learn to read and then analyze what is being said AGAINST what is in your head first because it seems you like to jump to conclusions, same trait from the previous posters above.

 

[SukkaFoo]

I am confused. Is your argument that Smuts did absolutely no good for the world, or that he was a racist and therefore it really doesn't matter what he did?