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A critical eye on the glamorous Open Source
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bekdik
Honorary Master
Not mentioned is QA and responsibility
risingtide
Senior Member
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My experience as far as open source support is concerned has been disappointing.
I am using Delphi and parts of the Jedi library to program. Jedi is an official delphi 'partner' project.
Quite serious bugs are in the code for over a year. My users complained within hours of getting an upgrade. Delphi is still quite widely used by programmers, the user base of the resulting products must be many times larger. A large user base therefore does not equate to quality.
The bug tracker software to report problems is down for weeks. The response of one developer (?) in the support forum amounted to "you have the source code, fix it yourself".
Of the 7 components is used (you can see that I avoid them as much as possible) 4 have bugs.
There are repeated comments from the project co-ordinator about not having resources.
Open source seems to need a new mindset, where one pays for service and support, which I don't mind. But that is also Microsofts argument when they say that Linux is not cheaper than Windows.
If you want a working system and quality you may pay at different times, up front or down the line, but as far as I can see, pay you will.
I am using Delphi and parts of the Jedi library to program. Jedi is an official delphi 'partner' project.
Quite serious bugs are in the code for over a year. My users complained within hours of getting an upgrade. Delphi is still quite widely used by programmers, the user base of the resulting products must be many times larger. A large user base therefore does not equate to quality.
The bug tracker software to report problems is down for weeks. The response of one developer (?) in the support forum amounted to "you have the source code, fix it yourself".
Of the 7 components is used (you can see that I avoid them as much as possible) 4 have bugs.
There are repeated comments from the project co-ordinator about not having resources.
Open source seems to need a new mindset, where one pays for service and support, which I don't mind. But that is also Microsofts argument when they say that Linux is not cheaper than Windows.
If you want a working system and quality you may pay at different times, up front or down the line, but as far as I can see, pay you will.
Frikkenator
Expert Member
Open source != free
Hmmm... I like the one article on this where he was quoted as saying: "Unlike rival Microsoft's proprietary software, the open source operating system works on the principle that software is free and can be modified at no cost by anyone to suit local and specific needs"
I would REALLY love to see them get anybody off the street to modify the linux kernel for them, or for that matter any additional software they'll need.
Countless studies has shown that in large/corporate systems, it is more costly to upgrade to linux/unix than it is to pay license fees to MS.
Some examples:
http://www.electricnews.net/frontpage/news-9406733.html
And especially this one:
http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/11/06/2051218&mode=thread&tid=156
From the last article:
"Consider again the environment; this is a government agency and is somewhat resource starved. They have a limited number of staff and the staff must split their time among many different working areas. They must be generalists and do not have time to specialize. Plus there is some turnover, especially among the better skilled staff. These factors lead to a basic requirement that there is someone they can call for support for every product they use, preferably 24 x 7. They also need to know that this support will be available for the entire lifetime of the project -- in this case a full decade." -- And this my dear friends, is the problem.... support.
I will put money on the table that this is just going to be another south african fiasco, eventually costing 10x as much as it does now to eventually run back to M$.
Hmmm... I like the one article on this where he was quoted as saying: "Unlike rival Microsoft's proprietary software, the open source operating system works on the principle that software is free and can be modified at no cost by anyone to suit local and specific needs"
I would REALLY love to see them get anybody off the street to modify the linux kernel for them, or for that matter any additional software they'll need.
Countless studies has shown that in large/corporate systems, it is more costly to upgrade to linux/unix than it is to pay license fees to MS.
Some examples:
http://www.electricnews.net/frontpage/news-9406733.html
And especially this one:
http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/11/06/2051218&mode=thread&tid=156
From the last article:
"Consider again the environment; this is a government agency and is somewhat resource starved. They have a limited number of staff and the staff must split their time among many different working areas. They must be generalists and do not have time to specialize. Plus there is some turnover, especially among the better skilled staff. These factors lead to a basic requirement that there is someone they can call for support for every product they use, preferably 24 x 7. They also need to know that this support will be available for the entire lifetime of the project -- in this case a full decade." -- And this my dear friends, is the problem.... support.
I will put money on the table that this is just going to be another south african fiasco, eventually costing 10x as much as it does now to eventually run back to M$.
RichardP
Banned
Borland doesnt make compilers anymore... where will that be in 5 years? If Jedi is open source, why didnt you fix the compoent yourself? THAT is the beauty of OSS - Fix it, and submit the patch. Besides, it can be argued that the Quality procedure is flawed if internal testing didnt pick up the problems the users would experience.
Frikkenator said:
I would like to see any user Patch Microsoft Every Patch Tuesday (and just forget one month) The article is semi-true, but someone that *can* patch a linux kernel is an engineer with brains. But taking from your statement, there are GUI based development environments and you really are scared of Open Source.
All the cost studies have been proven to be totaly flawed and inacurate (as Microsoft has paid for them to be done) Here is a stady that shows otherwise http://www.dwheeler.com/oss_fs_why.html
Some people cant see through the marketing crap and Statistics to make their own mind up. Every operating system has its place.
bekdik said:
And Microsoft has a Quality and takes responsibility for their bugs? Microsoft has never guaranteed Quality. All you need is a 12yr old VB programmer and you have the sloppiest system in the planet.... Quality?
The OpenSource/Closed Source argument has been going on for years.. Take both system for their Pro's and Cons.
Pay MS license fees for 1 year on 2000 systems, then compare the costs of employing 10 Linux Engineers.
In todays software world, if an engineer cant adapt to a pathetic Operating System, then that engineer cant be a professional.
Why do Software alot of software engineers fear linux? 'cos they dont know how it works.... learn different development environments and make yourself more attractive in the Software Engineering market.
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Frikkenator
Expert Member
Haha... No I'm not scared of open source, there is no difference between developing open source vs. proprietory software, is all just dev.
The problem comes in when you have to hire 10 linux engineers who are actually capable of doing their job efficiently. In this country that would more than likely mean getting in contractors at a rate of R700/h+.
I agree with you 100%, believe me, I'm no MS fanboy. Both linux and windows has their place, my argument is just that at this stage the government is not ready for this transition yet, as it isn't as EASY or CHEAP as the open source junkies would like to claim. First get the processes in place, then build the system to support it, we are still a long way from having efficient and effective processes.
And this is not exactly the same as a 12yr old open source junkie/script kiddy who doesn't even know why he likes the open source movement so much?
I'm really not trying to shrug off open source software as crap, quite the contrary, but at this stage, the fact of the matter is that the government is not ready for this change, and they do not know precisely what is involved in such a transistion.
The Schurtek Group has now successfully migrated all it's solutions to open source... and it has not been with out problem I can assure you... but the overall result has been outstanding... I have forged strong business alliances with the various developers of the solutions that I provide. Hence alot of the features that my clients have been requiring have been promptly implemented...
RichardP
Banned
Any developer that has C/C++/C# experience can develop on linux, I really dont think there is any special breed of engineers - A good software engeneer has the thinking capacity to look through systems and pick out the bits he wants. I wish I got R700 per hr! maybe wasnt looking in the right place :-]
There are the kiddies everywhere - but no matter what OS you use, there is no such thing as a free lunch
The Difference is that MS keep changing their licensing TOC and soon you are going to be "Renting" software from MS and they keep the rights.
in the Grander sceme, the whole Govt system is moving towards a Web based online system and we all know the logical choice for a good web server is. The current HARNIS system is falling apart at the seams and to maintain 1 client/desktop is a really dumb idea.
McSack
Executive Member
Ahahahahaaahahahaaahhh!!!! ... and it's all going to be done by 2010
Tokyo, Patrice and friends must be rushing to set up open source dev and support companies.
risingtide
Senior Member
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Borland, or CodeGear as they are known now have released numerous compiler products over the last year, including Delphi 2007 a week or two ago.
Why didn't I fix it myself? Because as far as these components are concerned I am the end user. I am an application programmer not a component writer or publisher. Is the philosophy of open source that the end user should fix the problems s/he encounters?
Anybody who has some programming experience knows how difficult it is to get to grips with code other people write. My priority is to give my customer what they want and not spending hours fixing what someone else wrote.
RichardP
Banned
Wow, I stand corrected. a year ago Borland were only doing develop Management systems (Star Team). I went to Microsoft Visual Studio when I heard this.
Thanks, maybe I might look at Broland again..
I hear you there...
kaspaas
Expert Member
OSS is not the magic bullet many make it to solve all problems.
But it could lead to substantial savings if applied correctly, or major losses if applied incorrectly - just as with MS systems.
Reading the OpenOffice montly newsletter is quite interesting - every month a few new cities in Europe and the US decide to do the changeover.
However, I don't know if I would have used Joomla for the multi-million rand E-Natis project.
But it could lead to substantial savings if applied correctly, or major losses if applied incorrectly - just as with MS systems.
Reading the OpenOffice montly newsletter is quite interesting - every month a few new cities in Europe and the US decide to do the changeover.
However, I don't know if I would have used Joomla for the multi-million rand E-Natis project.
chiskop
Executive Member
Ozymandias
Senior Member
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I read somewhere that the Government spends R2 billion/year in licences to Microsoft. I would guess that a fair percentage of that would be for the desktop such as Windows & MS Office.
OSS is a magic bullet if implimented correctly... if ill managed it WILL cripple an organisation. This brings me back to 1997/1998 when Word Perfect and Quattro Pro was changing hands more times than a Marijuana Joint at a Reggae Concert.
Companies started becoming concerned on the future of these two products which were at that stage the standard in South Africa. Microsoft jumped at the opportunity to offer subsidised training. If you purchased x number of licenses from Microsoft for MSOffice97 then they would subsidise training through a MS Accredited Training Provider... and companies jumped at this. I was working for a company called IT Archietects who facilitated the training of Toyota SA in Windows 95 and Office 97. R1000 per head per day... and Microsoft fitted 75% of the bill... BLESSINGS?
I do OSS change overs for companies... but on condition that the company completes a migration program through a SETA accredited training provider. My organistation has teamed up with ATHENA Interactive Training Network http://www.athena.co.za/ to offer the OpenOffice.org Migration Pack. The only difference is that ATHENA has aligned the pack to SAQA Unit Standards, so the Training is accredited and Internationally Recognised. Plus if you contribute to the SDF then you can include it in your Workplace Skills Plan and get it subsidised by your SETA.
yes it is. I had problems with ddclient on Linux. I couldn't take the bug screwing up my DNS anymore. No-one, not even the author of the code was prepared to help me. I couldn't figure out his code. Some others did and fixed it but weren't prepared to share their knowledge or compile me a package, so now I am running DirectUpdate on Windows 2000 and all my problems went away.