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Question of the Day: Google Maps vs Waze vs Apple Maps vs physical paper maps?
Advice Millwright to Software Developer
- Thread starter Muis95
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Muis95
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Neat I'm going to be digging through that thread
DA-LION-619
Honorary Master
I used to be the same, but then my brother started using Python purely for his post-grad stats work, in no way would he use a term to imply he is a coder.
My IT teacher did a Comp Sci + App Math degree, why he became a teacher I still have no idea.
That said, I wouldn’t say treat your computer as a living thing but rather some people can’t understand the interaction.
A computer will do what you tell it to do, not what you want it to do.
Some people rather blame Excel instead of themselves when things don’t work.
Can’t blame the YouTubers, they’re basically selling their thing.
“Why pay a university, rather pay me”
Isn’t the whole point to work ourselves out of a job? How many ToDo apps do we really need to build lol.
We introduce basic tools to people like IFTTT or Shortcuts that abstract away the complexities, like higher level languages have done for us.
Agent67
Honorary Master
‘Those who can, do; those who can’t, teach.’
It all goes back to this quote (applies to most teachers probably)...Yeah, people don't understand the job except "YoU MaKE FaCeBOOk ApP", then they make more generalisations instead of finding out what it's about...
True, most people don't get that if you input garbage into the pc, the pc will give you garbage back (classic GIGO)
I started coding as a hobby in 1990, professionally in 2000. Still coding for a living. The only reason I mention all the above is to emphasize that I've worked for and with hundreds of coders. Learned from many and mentored many. Some great, some true genuises, and some totally useless ones.
By far the most useless developer I've ever encountered has a masters degree from the University of the western cape. He literally cannot write a for loop without getting himself in a bind. Also the only developer I've ever encountered that has a union. The only way he can hang onto a job.
Guess what he does now..... you guessed it. Teaching at a university.
DA-LION-619
Honorary Master
This goes back to my question to the OP, and based on the original question asked.
Why is there this idea that to you need a Computer Science degree to learn programming or that everyone with such a degree should be able to program?
It’s not called a Computer Programming degree.
There’s tons of examples where the practical implementation doesn’t match the theory but you still need the theory as proof such as RSA crypto.
It's a mystery. I know plenty pro developers that's never seen the inside of a university.
But it def helps you to get a foot in the door.
DA-LION-619
Honorary Master
Maybe, but as indicated in this thread I’d put more weighting on networking.
I mean 100+ developers, you’d agree your network is massive.
It’s not uncommon to find teams, where most studied at the same place or worked together previously, that common background leads to more effective communication.
There shouldn’t be such an idea, although certain types of programming are geared far more for those who have degrees.
The key thing for the OP or anyone in a similar situation to realize is that “Software Engineering” is a very broad brush, and different parts of it have different optimal qualifications. Like just about everything else, the better the qualifications you have, the better the opportunities that are available.
Those employers who want degrees for work that won’t benefit from it are shooting them selves in the foot. Often they end up inadvertently selecting for the worst degreed candidates, who are far worse choices than a skilled person without a degree.
They really should be able to. Programming and Software Engineering are part of Computer Science. Those who finish their degrees without a fair amount of experience in this have inevitably cheated, copied, etc.
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DA-LION-619
Honorary Master
It’s not experience, if it was then we wouldn’t have that catch 22 of needing experience for a job and a job for experience.
There are plenty of jobs that don't require "work" (as in "paid work") experience, due to the practical experience done in a degree. I don't know anyone I studied with who ever encountered that catch 22. Furthermore, those in honours or later were mostly sought out and had an employment contract before they even finished studying.
In fact, many junior position requirements are written as "BSc or Equivalent Experience" (or even just "BSc" as a requirement), implying that a BSc is precisely the way to not get into a catch 22, where you first need to find another company willing to take on and train someone completely green.
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DA-LION-619
Honorary Master
Yes just like there’s board exams you don’t have to do because it was covered in the degree.
Those in hons and later would be doing a project, but the discussion isn’t about that, it’s specifically about the 3 year degree without any additional things like math.
If there’s types of programming that due to the complexity require an understanding in other subjects such as math/stats etc.
Then it also true you cannot expect someone to do those types of programming because they’ve only done comp sci.
DA-LION-619
Honorary Master
Not a fact, there’s a job section on the forum.
Find a junior position not requiring experience, implying BSc is precisely what they want.
No frameworks, no languages that aren’t used in universities anymore, no TSQL.
All but the "already having a job" bit applied to my 3rd year colleagues.
A quick search shows:
BBD: https://bbdsoftware.com/jobs/c-engineer-4/
· BSc Computer Science or similar tertiary qualification
· Proficiency in C# with +/-3 years solid exposure at an academic or professional level
Amazon:
Software Development Engineer Graduate – 2021 (Cape Town - South Africa)
DESCRIPTIONDo you want to solve business challenges through innovative technology? Do you enjoy working on cutting-edge, scalable services technology in a team environment? Do you like working on industry-defining projects that move the needle? At Amazon, we hire the best minds in technology to...
www.amazon.jobs
· Graduated less than 6 months ago or about to complete a Bachelor’s or Master’s Degree in Computer Science, Computer Engineering, or related fields at time of application
Derivco: https://humancapitalmanagement.wd3....Careers/job/Gold-Coast/Developer-Level-2_R886
- Minimum 2-3 years software development experience OR
- Minimum 3 year relevant qualification OR
- Relevant 1 year certification and at least 2 years software development experience.
I agree, but in Com Sci, you cover numerous programming paradigms, languages, algorithms, software engineering principles, computer architecture (important for understanding performance programming), etc., and you get experience in them. Furthermore, the required 1st year maths/stats is incredibly useful for just standard programming tasks, such as understanding the data you're working with, analyzing performance and error metrics, etc.
I still recall most of my undergrad programming tasks. Granted, things have changed by now, but it included:
1) Rendering a Mandelbrot Fractal in Scheme
2) Sorting in x86 assembler
3) Implementing the OS side of a page fault handler and heap memory allocator.
4) Writing a software 3D renderer.
5) Writing something like IRC using sockets.
6) ODBC database access and SQL
7) Writing a C compiler.
8) Implementation of many advanced data structures and algorithms.
9) Numerous OO design and UML based projects
10) Comparative programming language overview (Prolog, Smalltalk, Python, etc.)
11) Primary language was C++
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Yeah, not having to do those jobs is exactly what a BSc buys you. The better jobs have the "BSc/Bsc. or Eqiv Exp." options (which a lot of the time are also the work visa requirements for overseas too).
DA-LION-619
Honorary Master
This is a senior role.
Graduate role which states exactly what I did, Although no specific programming language is required – you should be familiar with the syntax of languagesAmazon:Software Development Engineer Graduate – 2021 (Cape Town - South Africa)
DESCRIPTIONDo you want to solve business challenges through innovative technology? Do you enjoy working on cutting-edge, scalable services technology in a team environment? Do you like working on industry-defining projects that move the needle? At Amazon, we hire the best minds in technology to...
· Graduated less than 6 months ago or about to complete a Bachelor’s or Master’s Degree in Computer Science, Computer Engineering, or related fields at time of application
This is a level 2 role, but I’m familiar with Derivco which speaks to my point about networking being a more beneficial factor.
Career expos are a thing on many campuses and I know Derivco asks for a copy of the final year class list.
I don’t disagree with that, increasing your factors for opportunities is always a good thing.
???. It's not - no professional experience required.
I don't understand your point - do you think people with BSc degrees aren't "familiar with the syntax of languages such as Java, C/C++ or Python"?
The role states experience OR qualification, so no catch 22 if you've got a BSc. Level 2 sounds like their entry level for someone with just a degree (or 3+ years experience) - I'm not sure why you think that's relevant?
I do agree with the networking point - which is why an on-site university experience is the best, for those who can do it.
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DA-LION-619
Honorary Master
The same link? https://bbdsoftware.com/jobs/c-engineer-4/
I think Amazon understands my point that it's unreasonable that a graduate would have the experience required to program, by which I mean more than printing "Hello World".
Well everything is relevant? https://humancapitalmanagement.wd3....Careers/job/Gold-Coast/Developer-Level-2_R886
If you skimmed or skipped this part,
They can't seriously be looking for an expert beginner?
Again everything is relevant.
So while you interpreted it as experience OR qualification, I saw it as experience OR qualification(AND unpaid experience).
Most skipped this part of the post.
Then replied to this part of the post.
Now if you don't understand the question, how can you give the right answer?
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It says academic.
It's literally a job description for "Software Development Engineer Graduate" - that's exactly what they want. More than "hello world" (and yes, I get that you mean the more general "sample code" style)? Did you actually do a degree - wondering how you would make such a ridiculous assertion?
The informal description is boiler plate, the actual experience required is exactly what is listed under the "experience" section. The rest is desired/preferred skills, or skills requirements that only apply to those with work experience.
???