Advice on budget camera

[koffiejunkie]

It's simple ... you only have to look at Nikon's market share.... it's plunged on both P&S as well as DSLR according to the latest stats out of Japan.

Linky? I'm amused, I would have expected Nikon's market share to climb.

Surprised to see the 7D there. Is it really THAT popular?

Yes. It is what a lot of Canon users have been waiting for. I see a lot of them "in the wild" - seems to be selling like sweetcakes.

My advice is to stay away from 2nd hand SLRs - they are cheaper than new and good P&S cameras for a reason.

I have two second hand SLRs, one is almost as old as I am. Both work just fine.

Secondly stay away from Sony/Fuji/Olympus or anything else that does not use standard memory formats (Secure Digital/Compact Flash)

For a change I agree with you

or anything that does not run on AA batteries.

Didn't last long though. In the cameras I have/had that can take both, the battery pack is better every time.

 

[bwana]

Surprised to see the 7D there. Is it really THAT popular?

So am I - I'm also kind of curious where that list actually comes from. Pricegrabber.com?

The 7D is a bit of an enigma to me - if it wasnt for the frame rate I'd have zero interest.

 

[koffiejunkie]

The 7D is a bit of an enigma to me - if it wasnt for the frame rate I'd have zero interest.

Better high ISO than the xxD bodies, better AF, bigger view finder, to name a few. But yeah, if you're looking for a bigger sensor, then this is wouldn't be on your radar.

 

[Rouxenator]

Didn't last long though. In the cameras I have/had that can take both, the battery pack is better every time.

All batteries run out and while the cafe on the corner do stock AA, they do not sell what ever pack it is your camera is running on. Besides, you'd be surprised how long 2700mAH will go for.

I have used the Kodak Z812 and Z1012 which had the ability to run off either 2x AA cells or a KLIC-8000 LION pack that fitted in the same compartment - LION does go a little further.

 

[SubliminalThought]

So am I - I'm also kind of curious where that list actually comes from. Pricegrabber.com?

The 7D is a bit of an enigma to me - if it wasnt for the frame rate I'd have zero interest.

I'm actually quite interested in the 7D. However, if the 5D MKII had the AF of the 7D then I would look at the 5D. Its priced right for my photography which is ONLY a hobby. I don't make any money off my images, and the 7D looks great to me.

 

[SubliminalThought]

All batteries run out and while the cafe on the corner do stock AA, they do not sell what ever pack it is your camera is running on. Besides, you'd be surprised how long 2700mAH will go for.

I have used the Kodak Z812 and Z1012 which had the ability to run off either 2x AA cells or a KLIC-8000 LION pack that fitted in the same compartment - LION does go a little further.

I always always buy two battery packs for my cameras. And while for the most part having a camera that takes AAs and standard memory cards is a plus for the sake of convenience, I look at cameras holistically in terms of ease of use, image quality, build quality and other factors. So if Sony, despite their propriety MemoryStick, offered a better camera (in my view), I would go with Sony.

 

[bwana]

I'm actually quite interested in the 7D. However, if the 5D MKII had the AF of the 7D then I would look at the 5D. Its priced right for my photography which is ONLY a hobby. I don't make any money off my images, and the 7D looks great to me.

If I'm puzzled by the pro interest in the 7D then that confusion is double so for the hobbyist. Is it really worth $700 more to the hobbyist than the 50D?

My belief is that they introduced it as the 7D so they wouldnt have to acknowledge that the 50D really isn't that great. With it's crop sensor it really doesn't belong in the same class as the 5D Mk2 (or even the old 5D) or the 1DsMk3.

All batteries run out and while the cafe on the corner do stock AA, they do not sell what ever pack it is your camera is running on. Besides, you'd be surprised how long 2700mAH will go for.

I get 3000+ shots off a charge - I'm going to run out of memory before I run out of power.

 

[SubliminalThought]

If I'm puzzled by the pro interest in the 7D then that confusion is double so for the hobbyist. Is it really worth $700 more to the hobbyist than the 50D?

[OT]
I look at some of my pics from my 400D and they look sharper than the 50D images. But the 50D does turn out sharp images some times tho. I don't exactly understand the situations where-in it does, or maybe its because i'm using lightroom and not DPP - or just my lack of photographic skill. Reports from the internet also roughly corroborate that with the 50D you need to be careful, use good glass, avoid diffraction etc etc to get sharp images. So I would like to switch to the 7D which reportedly does a much better job than the 50D. I would also like more AF options. My eyes aint that good and I rely on autofocus quite a bit.

As a hobbyist after getting the 50D tho, I'm in no rush at all to switch. But when the next body comes out and the 7D drops in price i would consider it.
[/OT]

 

[koffiejunkie]

All batteries run out and while the cafe on the corner do stock AA, they do not sell what ever pack it is your camera is running on. Besides, you'd be surprised how long 2700mAH will go for.

I have used the Kodak Z812 and Z1012 which had the ability to run off either 2x AA cells or a KLIC-8000 LION pack that fitted in the same compartment - LION does go a little further.

Maybe the difference is small on dinky toy point&shoot cams, with their tiny little flashes, but on the bigger cameras, especially DSLRs with their focus motors, big flashes and powerful processors, the difference is pretty substantial.

That's not the only issue. My G9 has a 7.4v battery. In the same space I they could put two AA or three AAA batteries. So that gives 3v or 4.5v. My CyberShot is has a 3.6v Li-Ion battery. The camera is little over 1cm thick. Imagine how big it would be if it had to cope with two AA batteries. And despite this model having a bigger screen, optical stabilisation, much faster image processing, it gives me roughly three times as many shots as my older CyberShot with its two AA batteries gave me.

One last thing. I don't consider it unreasonable to expect someone who's serious about their photography (weather pro or enthusiast/hobby) to keep an extra battery or two handy, especially when travelling. I have two batteries for my 50D. It didn't cost me an arm and a leg - about as much as four 4-packs of UniRoss 2700mAh rechargeables did (sans charger). I've tried the AAs in the battery grip. It takes two groups of three AA instead of two canon batteries. Again, the battery life doesn't compare. Neither does the flash recycle time. And I can get both canon batteries charged up from empty in the time it takes four AAs to charge.

Availability is the *only* advantage, and irrelevant if you buy a few extra batteries.

 

[bwana]

've tried the AAs in the battery grip. It takes two groups of three AA instead of two canon batteries.

I dont know if you've tried it or not but my grip works just fine with one Canon battery.

 

[koffiejunkie]

If I'm puzzled by the pro interest in the 7D then that confusion is double so for the hobbyist. Is it really worth $700 more to the hobbyist than the 50D?

From what I read on the forums, the pros who buy this are either after the video (better implementation than on the 5DmkII with respect to controls) or they want the better reach for birding/wildlife/sports.

With it's crop sensor it really doesn't belong in the same class as the 5D Mk2 (or even the old 5D) or the 1DsMk3.

Should class only be measured by the sensor size? Your body is crop too, right? The 7D outclasses both the 5D and 5DmkII in other areas, despite being cheaper. Anyway, neither the 5DmkII nor 7D are considered professional bodies.

I look at some of my pics from my 400D and they look sharper than the 50D images.

Bigger pixels will always look sharper on a per-pixel level. Take the same picture with both and resize the image from the 50D to the same size as the one from the 400D. Can you tell the difference now? My 50D images also look a little softer on a per-pixel level, but it still captures a lot more detail than the 40D did.

Another issue you may run into is simply focus calibration. The 50D has micro-focus adjustment, so you should be able to sort that out if it is a problem.

 

[koffiejunkie]

I dont know if you've tried it or not but my grip works just fine with one Canon battery.

Mine too. But in fairness when I checked battery life I filled the grip with either. So two BP511 batteries vs 6xAA. It only seems fair.

 

[bwana]

Should class only be measured by the sensor size? Your body is crop too, right? The 7D outclasses both the 5D and 5DmkII in other areas, despite being cheaper. Anyway, neither the 5DmkII nor 7D are considered professional bodies.

I think camera class should take into account sensor size - especially if you keep cramming in more pixels into that smaller sized sensor. You'll notice I left my crop body out of my class list [for that very reason].

I did not know that the 5D's weren't considered to be professional bodies.

Mine too. But in fairness when I checked battery life I filled the grip with either. So two BP511 batteries vs 6xAA. It only seems fair.

I use the grip more for portraits than for extending battery battery life.

Bigger pixels will always look sharper on a per-pixel level. Take the same picture with both and resize the image from the 50D to the same size as the one from the 400D. Can you tell the difference now? My 50D images also look a little softer on a per-pixel level, but it still captures a lot more detail than the 40D did.

You seem to put a fair amount of weight behind the DxO site - see how their results for the 400D and 50D stack up - http://tinyurl.com/yac84j4 - pretty close if you ask me. Shockingly close if you consider the 50D is two years newer and $800 more expensive.

 

[koffiejunkie]

I did not know that the 5D's weren't considered to be professional bodies.

As far as I understand, only the 1 series is pro. I may be wrong about that though, but I've read over and over (this may be a result of CPS terms - not sure) that the 5D is not considered a pro body. It's not weather sealed like the 1D series and the AF is very old. From what I've seen even the 400D has a beter AF system.

I use the grip more for portraits than for extending battery battery life.

I use it tot store the extra battery But I agree, the portrait mode is my main use for it. Even with one battery, I get more clicks than I ever use in one session.

You seem to put a fair amount of weight behind the DxO site

I refer to them because they're the only site that I know of where one can compare detailed results, instead of just specs.

see how their results for the 400D and 50D stack up - http://tinyurl.com/yac84j4 - pretty close if you ask me. Shockingly close if you consider the 50D is two years newer and $800 more expensive.

I'm under no illusion about that. The 40D beats both in most things. But we were discussing sharpness/detail - the one thing that the DxO results doesn't address. SubliminalThought didn't mention weather he's shooting RAW or JPEG. The 50D's jpegs in the standard picture style are a touch softer than they were on the 40D. The RAW files require a little bit more sharpening, but once you've done that the detail is there. That's why we shoot RAW, after all...

 

[bwana]

As far as I understand, only the 1 series is pro. I may be wrong about that though, but I've read over and over (this may be a result of CPS terms - not sure) that the 5D is not considered a pro body. It's not weather sealed like the 1D series and the AF is very old. From what I've seen even the 400D has a beter AF system.

Seems the 3, 5, 7 are "Premium" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_EOS#Naming_Scheme - go figure. I still dont believe the 7D belongs anywhere other than prosumer.
//let the feather ruffling commence . . .
I'm sure SubliminalThought shoots RAW - he doesnt strike me as being ignorant or arrogant
//and end feather ruffling

 

[koffiejunkie]

Seems the 3, 5, 7 are "Premium" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_EOS#Naming_Scheme - go figure.

Strange. The Premium is described as "Weather sealing and tougher construction" which isn't the case. The 5D/5DmkII is on par with the xxD in that respect, while the 7D is, according to Canon, on par with the EOS 1N

I still dont believe the 7D belongs anywhere other than prosumer.

What is you criteria then? I agree that it's a prosumer/sem-pro body. It's aimed squarely at the Nikon D300 (and competes well, I think). But then, I also consider the Nikon D2 series pro bodies, but they are 1.5x crop. Someone shooting a Hasselblad will probably consider the D3 and 1Ds mkIII semi-pro if we consider sensor size and resulting IQ only.

 

[Rouxenator]

Firstly, this thread started our with the question what camera to get for about R1500. That would be either a Canon A480 or Nikon Coolpix or maybe a Kodak C range model. Why do I only see SLR models everywhere now ?

Secondly, regarding batteries, on a small point and shoot or even advanced ultrazoom camera it makes more sense to get something that runs on AA batteries - its cheaper and more convenient.

If you are in the SLR environment you don't need that because :
1) you already have loads of cash to burn on bodies, lenses, flashes, battery packs, travel chargers, car chargers, solar chargers and perhaps even wind chargers and
2) you are used to carrying an SLR with you so a few extra battery packs and perhaps a small family sedan is not that much extra weight for you to lug around.

 

[bwana]

2) you are used to carrying an SLR with you so a few extra battery packs and perhaps a small family sedan is not that much extra weight for you to lug around.

2x AA batteries - 52g
1x Canon NB-2LH - 42g

What is you criteria then?

ok - had to think about this. Durable body, weather proofing (no popup flash), APS-H or larger sensor, dual card slots.

 

[BigAl-sa]

I still dont believe the 7D belongs anywhere other than prosumer.

If you take a look at the specs, the 7d is better than the 5d in many areas. The main advantage that the 5d has is the bigger sensor. I'm with Koffie, that the 7d is aimed at the sports/nature type photographer, whereas the 5d is aimed at the studio photographer.

5d II specs, 7d specs

 

[bwana]

If you take a look at the specs, the 7d is better than the 5d in many areas. The main advantage that the 5d has is the bigger sensor. I'm with Koffie, that the 7d is aimed at the sports/nature type photographer, whereas the 5d is aimed at the studio photographer.

5d II specs, 7d specs

If you're going by specs then the 50D betters the 5DMk2 in areas too but it's still a XXD.

Of course designating it XD means they can charge more and people will happily pay it.