Affirmative Action - The Distance

Excuse me while I roll around a bit.

Shareholders are the greedy pigs who drive companies to pursue profits above all else. All the rest, upliftment, ethics, etc, are only activies the companies take part in to advance the profit motive in different ways.

However, a lot of good can come from a company that focuses on profit.

Like the investment companies who pushed junk mortgages to pursue profit?

The profit motive is not the be-all and end-all. Totally unregulated markets lend themselves to the nastier human habits like price collusion etc
 
You are of course assuming one can judge who is "the best" candidate based only on an interview.

This is where the problem comes in. When people don't have enough info to make that call of who will be the "best" for the job, they fall back to who/what they know.

Totally free markets do/should not exist. The current economic crises points that out quite nicely. Unregulated greed in the financial markets led to a global economic meltdown.

Lets not confuse ourself with over zealous reasoning :D meltdown is not the same as MELTDOWN ! In my world a -5% is a meltdown :D On the African continent a -5% is a small, seasonal adjustment and a -95% is a MELTDOWN :D (is superfluous to give examples) So, which one are we talking about?
 
You are of course assuming one can judge who is "the best" candidate based only on an interview.

This is where the problem comes in. When people don't have enough info to make that call of who will be the "best" for the job, they fall back to who/what they know.

Totally free markets do/should not exist. The current economic crises points that out quite nicely. Unregulated greed in the financial markets led to a global economic meltdown.

Dude where hell do you get your info. "Unregulated greed caused the meltdown"

I'm sorry but huh? Try some research dude. The banks didn't magically decide one day to reduce the interest rate. They didn't decide out of the blue to change to credit policies.

The Fed as in Federal Reserve (US Government central bank) decided to lower interest rates. The fed is a government protected bank by law. How is that "free" if they have a monopoly on brand new debt expansion enforced by the government. Its the opposite of a "unregulated" market.

The government instituted policies to encourage banks to lower their credit controls so that people who couldn't afford houses could magically afford them?

If you are saying it was the free market that caused the crisis, then you are saying that banks VOLUNTARILY (without any coercion) lowered their interest rates to almost 0% (NO profit) and VOLUNTARILY lowered credit controls to lend money to lots of people who had no jobs and were unlikely to pay it back.... all in the name of PROFIT?

What profit. Any half-wit could tell that wasn't profitable. If you say banks are greedier than they would act "greedily" and not give a damn about the poor and not lent out any money. But they did.

Nah I'm sick and tired of people blaming free-market or capitalism when it was the regulations and government intereferance that causes problems.

Profit is the be all and end all as it is a by product of all other motives.

If you as a company advertise that you are environmentally friendly. You are doing so in the hope more people buy your stuff and thus more money. You build a gym for your employees at work. You are hoping that this will lead and healthier and happier employees. This leads to an increase in productivity and thus more profits.

Even so called non-profits cannot operate at a loss indefinately.

Profits are an indication of how well companies are meeting consumer needs. (In a free market.)
If you make a loss you are using too many resources to add less value to society.

If you are profitable the products you make our more valued than the resources consumed.

www.mises.org

Educate yourselves.
 
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If you want to understand money and how it and central banking contribute to the business (boom n bust) cycle you gotta read this guys articles.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north784.html

By Gary North

MY FUNDAMENTAL POINT

In Part 1, I made the point that the Austrian School's theory of money is an extension of its overall theory of economic exchange. This distinguishes the Austrian School's view from all rival views of money.

The rival views insist that the free market is insufficient to provide a reliable monetary system. Either the national government or the nation's central bank must intervene in the free market in order to provide stability and reliability to the money system and therefore to the economy.

The logical extension of this outlook is that there is a great need for a world government and a world central bank, which together provide such stability internationally. Most economists and politicians refuse to say this in public, but this is a matter of prudence, not logic.

In contrast, the Austrians say that the free market can provide such a system of world money. We have already seen this system in operation. It was called the gold standard. It operated for most of the nineteenth century. It needed no world government and no world central bank to make it work. It did not need trained economists to make it work. You can imagine how popular Austrian School economics is with economists – about as popular as the gold standard.


The non-Austrians insist that money needs government coercion in order to be money. Money may have started without coercion, but this condition cannot last for long, nor did it. The defenders of this position rarely come out and explain why, in terms of their theory of markets, money is different from other goods and services. If private property and the right of exchange produce efficient markets for other scarce resources, why not for money? They do not say, exactly. They just insist that this is the case.

Then, not surprisingly, we find that in exception after exception, they insist that other aspects of the economy also cannot function without state coercion. In niche after niche, in sector after sector, we are told that market-clearing bids cannot arise. But the biggest sector of all is money.

WHAT IS MONEY?

Mises defined money in 1912. Money is the most marketable commodity. This identifies the central benefit of money: a means of exchange.

Contrary to the standard textbook accounts, money is not a measure of value. There is no measure of value. Value is subjective. You could as easily measure your love for your children.

Also contrary to these accounts, money is not a store of value, although it is a valuable thing to store. There is no store of value. There is at best continuity of price.

Money is a unit of account. It makes possible modern double-entry bookkeeping. Mises said that this was one of the greatest inventions of the modern world.


Mises argued that money arose out of voluntary exchange. A commodity that had been sought and bought for attributes other than its use as a means of exchange became a commonly accepted means of exchange. This created new demand for it. The government did not create money. Individual decision-makers did.

Civil government soon insisted on sovereignty over money. It stamped coins. This authenticated the coins. But, when governments found that they could steal from the public by debasing the gold or silver coins with cheaper (base) metals, the newer unauthentic coins de-legitimized the inflating governments. Authenticity became unauthenticity.

Fiat money is a form of counterfeiting. In a world of fiat national moneys that are in competition with each other, national governments have become members in a kind of competitive cartel of counterfeiters. "My counterfeit money is better than yours!" they insist.

Gresham's law states that bad money drives out good money. This law holds true only when governments set price controls – fixed rates of exchange – between different forms of money. The artificially overvalued money drives the artificially undervalued money out of circulation. We do not see gold and silver coins in use as money today because governments have artificially overvalued their own national currencies.

FIVE DECIDING ISSUES

There are five fundamental issues in every social order and every institution: (1) sovereignty, (2) authority, (3) law, (4) sanctions, and (5) continuity. Put in easily memorized form, they are:

1. Who's in charge here?
2. To whom do I report?
3. What are the rules?
4. What do I get if I obey? (disobey?)
5. Does this outfit have a future?

With respect to money, the Austrian theory of money answers these questions as follows:

1. The free market
2. The individual who has money
3. The right of exchange/contract
4. Profit and loss
5. Long use encourages future use

With respect to money, the other schools of opinion differ from each other, but not on these issues:

1. The state
2. The fractional reserve banking system
3. Never allow price deflation
4. Big bank bailouts
5. People will adjust to price inflation

The universal outlook of the non-Austrian schools of thought is that a steady price deflation is always bad, but a little price inflation is not so bad, and it is surely better than price deflation, recession, or depression. In all theories of money except Austrianism, the state is seen as the necessary agent of planning. Even in schools of thought that proclaim the inefficiency of central planning, the members hold to the necessity of scientific central planning of money. All of them call for the economists employed by the state-created central bank to adjust the money supply in order to achieve specific outcomes.

Deep within every non-Austrian free market economist, there is a central planner screaming to get out.

FRACTIONAL RESERVE BANKING

Under fractional reserve banking, banks are allowed to lend out money that has been promised to depositors. The depositors think of their deposits as money. So do borrowers. Borrowers spend this money. Then, one dark day, depositors also try to spend this money. A bank run begins.

Let us review how the system works. A bank accepts a deposit of $100. It sends $10 to the regional Federal Reserve Bank as its mandated legal reserve. It lends out $90. The borrower spends this money. His bank takes $9 and sends it to the FED. Then it lends out $81. On and on it goes, until the original $100 deposit turns into $900.

Inflationary? You bet!

The fractional reserve process allows the banking system to expand the money supply. This creates an economic boom by lowering commercial interest rates. To lend this new money, banks must find borrowers. To lure them in, the banks have to offer lower interest rates than what prevailed before the fiat money was created.

Entrepreneurs who borrow the money begin new projects. But then they find that they are running short of capital. The increase in fiat money did not represent an increase in thrift: future-orientation of consumers, i.e., a willingness to defer consumption. Businessmen must now compete for more money to finish projects. Interest rates rise. More companies then shut down incomplete projects. The recession begins.

Fractional reserve banking rests on an impossibility: that all depositors can withdraw currency at the same time, even though the money has been loaned out. The bank's contract allows depositors to withdraw currency on demand. This contract is inherently fraudulent. It cannot be fulfilled in a banking crisis. There are two legal claims on the same money: depositor and borrower.

If the bank's contract with depositors had specified that the money would not available until the subsequent loan was repaid by the borrower, there would be no problem. The problem arises from the simultaneity of economic value across time. Future value is always discounted by time. This is the phenomenon known as the time value of money. Mises called it time preference.

The heart of the contract's problem is that current money is always worth more than future money. The value of future money is discounted by three factors:

1. The discount of all future value
2. The risk of non-payment
3. The inflation premium (depreciated money)

Fractional reserve banking rests on an impossibility: "The discount applied to future money will not change." When a banking crisis occurs because of this, the size of the discrepancy between the present value of money and its future value, there are bank runs. The discount applied to future money increases due to a rising risk of default. "A bird in hand is worth two under the bush." Depositors want their now even more valuable present money rather than a legal claim on now less valuable future money. The banks do not have the currency to pay off the depositors.

The bank then calls in whatever loans that it can. The debtors cannot repay. They go bankrupt. Then banks that lent them the money go bankrupt.

A depression takes place because pricing of capital goods was made on a false assumption: the depositors would never all demand their money at the same time.

The assumption is false because the initial premise was false: "The present value of future money will not depreciate so much as to cause a run on the banks."

But couldn't bans raise the interest paid to depositors? Of course. They could get out their iPhones and speed dial 1-800-FREE-LUNCH 1-800-FREE-LUNCH .

Maybe depositors get fired because their employers could not meet the demand for repayment to the banks. The depositors then demand immediate money. Banks cannot deliver. The collapse of overextended banks exacerbates the depression.

The inverted pyramid of debt collapses. What goes up (boom) must come down (bust). But not for long. The central bank then steps in and creates new money to forestall this collapse. Another round of counterfeiting begins.
 
BOOM-BUST, BUST-BOOM

The reason why economies suffer from booms and busts is because the fractional reserve banking process continues. It continues because there is an enforcer who calls the bust to a stop before prices have adjusted to the new conditions of supply and demand. The enforcer is the central bank.

A central bank's primary function in every nation is to keep large banks in the banking cartel from going bankrupt. The big banks are never allowed to go belly-up.

The central bank always intervenes and creates new fiat money to bail out the big banks. If it doesn't, the government does. The cure for the bad outcome of fiat money inflation – depression – is always another round of monetary inflation. This sets off the boom-bust cycle once again.

Once started, the process continues, generation after generation. The groups that prospered from the fiat money–induced boom demand bailouts. Some of them do get bailed out by the government. These bailouts are paid for by new government debt (no change in the money supply) and also by fiat money issued by the central bank.

There is never a day of final reckoning. Everyone plays kick the can. This is point five: continuity. It is the continuity of deferred judgment (point four). The profit and loss system is not allowed to work.

Monetary reform never takes place because everyone wants to defer final judgment. Everyone wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die. Everyone wants a stable economy with growth. No one wants recession and increased bankruptcies to re-price capital goods. So, kick the can always results in another round of monetary inflation. The boom-bust cycles repeat.

This is continuity in the modern fiat money economy. The voters want it. The debtors want it. The banks want it. Businessmen want it.

The result: American prices as measured by the consumer price index have risen by a factor of 20 since the Federal Reserve System began operating in 1914. The dollar has depreciated by about 95%.

There is never a monetary reform that in fact reforms the system. All monetary reforms are applications of kick the can.

WHERE DOES IT ALL END?

If kick the can continues, fiat money will depreciate. People will take on new debt on the assumption that inflation will let them repay their debts with money of reduced purchasing power. When recession hits, they demand government action. This means more inflation.


Mises argued that when people catch on to the game, they will take evasive action. They will make plans in terms of rising prices. Other economists have agreed. But this led Mises to argue that the economic contraction would come if the supply of money were not increased at an ever-higher rate and unexpected rate. Inflation would become hyperinflation. He saw this take place in Austria a decade after The Theory of Money and Credit was published.

He was once asked if he had a hedge against inflation. He replied: "Age."

There must be a default at some point. The question is: "Which kind?" If the central bank ceases to inflate, a recession begins. If the government or the central bank refuses to intervene, many banks go under. This shrinks the money supply. The recession becomes a depression. Bankruptcies and unemployment increase.

Tax revenues fall. The government cannot pay its debt and also meet all of its promises. It must choose:

1. Default on all of the debt
2. Default on part of the debt
3. Tell the central bank to inflate
4. Raise taxes and cut expenditures

Choice #3 starts the process over. The ultimate result: the destruction of the currency. This is default through inflation. It is nonetheless a default.

CONCLUSION

Decide which way of default is most likely. Then decide when. Then plan accordingly.

Or you can do what the policy-makers do. Kick the can. Most people do.

But then, one day, there is a day of reckoning. However, until then. . . .

"We'll have fun, fun, fun till the market takes our T-bills away."
 
The problem is if the ANC finally sees that AA,BEE is not working they wont have the Balls to stand up and say 'Eish we wrong AA,BEE not work Eish'
 
They would just lose voters and so it is not in their best interest. Its really fairly simple, governments ten to perpetuate that which keeps them in power.

Probable the main reason the ANC won't speak out against Melama, the SACP and COSATU.
 
The problem is if the ANC finally sees that AA,BEE is not working they wont have the Balls to stand up and say 'Eish we wrong AA,BEE not work Eish'
They have a work-around, which works out more costly to the tax payer, so there's no incentive for them to change.
One of the workaround's for the skills shortage is to employ skill's (many of them white and from the UK) on short term contracts, while still shutting out white South Africans with the same skills.
In the medical profession these skills are sourced from countries that don't always have a high level of training in this field.
 
Clearly you are 'a bit' confused :D Never mind - I vote for you to replace Vavi. I like your thinking and hope BEE will get you to the top.

Huh? I'm not sure what your point is.

While we're on the topic though, it's worthwhile looking at some of the things companies are being obliged to do (or volunteering to do) as far as social responsibility goes; things like:
-Sustainability reporting required for companies listed on the LSE.
-The sustainability reporting index on the NYSE.
-The SRI (Socially Responsible Investment) Index on the JSE; optional now, but will become mandatory.
-The GRI (Global Reporting Initiative); de facto global standard for sustainability reporting.

And when companies do this do they do so anonymously or is their name splashed everywhere?

I can't speak for other companies, but I know that with ours, many of the initiatives don't make the news or media reports at all.
 
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Dude where hell do you get your info. "Unregulated greed caused the meltdown"

I'm sorry but huh? Try some research dude. The banks didn't magically decide one day to reduce the interest rate. They didn't decide out of the blue to change to credit policies.

The Fed as in Federal Reserve (US Government central bank) decided to lower interest rates. The fed is a government protected bank by law. How is that "free" if they have a monopoly on brand new debt expansion enforced by the government. Its the opposite of a "unregulated" market.

The government instituted policies to encourage banks to lower their credit controls so that people who couldn't afford houses could magically afford them?

This was just a very small part of it. You've left out subprime lending, teaser rates, the housing bubble, CDOs, rating agencies, credit default swaps, agency costs, and plain old poor financial management. Anyway, weren't rates lowered after the collapse?

And on the Federal Reserve; if I'm not mistaken, like the SA Reserve Bank, banks are not obliged to lower rates when the reserve bank lowers the lending rate of banking reserves; they could keep their rates high, if they wanted, but competition could do them serious harm.
 
I know for a fact that more "aid" is given from private interest in the U.S. than all the "foreign aid" the US government dolls out to other countries.
 
This was just a very small part of it. You've left out subprime lending, teaser rates, the housing bubble, CDOs, rating agencies, credit default swaps, agency costs, and plain old poor financial management. Anyway, weren't rates lowered after the collapse?

And on the Federal Reserve; if I'm not mistaken, like the SA Reserve Bank, banks are not obliged to lower rates when the reserve bank lowers the lending rate of banking reserves; they could keep their rates high, if they wanted, but competition could do them serious harm.


It was lowered which allowed people to borrow money and created the boom. Because of the increase in the money supply inflation started growing, so to curb inflation the rate were raised to 5% or so. People couldn't afford it...so bust.

During a bust, people tend to start saving again and stop spending which obviously hurts companies that need to sell stuff they bought at inflated prices. As they can't they go bust.

In order to keep prices the way they are, you need to keep up consumer spending. How you do this, is to "give people money". I.E. make borrowing cheap again, hence, lower the interest rate. So people can now borrow and pay on credit at the inflated prices as before.

Here is Peter Schiff on the economic crises in the U.S before it happened.

http://garynorth.com/public/4251.cfm
 
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You are right in that banks are not obliged to lower rates. You are also right about the fact they they might do so anyway in a competitive environment in order to compete.

However if you are running a business will you allow any and all customers to pay on credit regardless of their background, cash on hand etc. ?

If you do and it comes back to bite you, should you get taxpayer (Other peoples money stolen by government) in order to stay in business. Wouldn't we be better off by letting those business that made mistakes pay for them, and free up capital and labour for business that have been working, that have saved, that did not "chase" profits on paper (IOU's not cash)

From http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north784.html

BOOM-BUST, BUST-BOOM

The reason why economies suffer from booms and busts is because the fractional reserve banking process continues. It continues because there is an enforcer who calls the bust to a stop before prices have adjusted to the new conditions of supply and demand. The enforcer is the central bank.

A central bank's primary function in every nation is to keep large banks in the banking cartel from going bankrupt. The big banks are never allowed to go belly-up.

The central bank always intervenes and creates new fiat money to bail out the big banks. If it doesn't, the government does. The cure for the bad outcome of fiat money inflation – depression – is always another round of monetary inflation. This sets off the boom-bust cycle once again.

Once started, the process continues, generation after generation. The groups that prospered from the fiat money–induced boom demand bailouts. Some of them do get bailed out by the government. These bailouts are paid for by new government debt (no change in the money supply) and also by fiat money issued by the central bank.

There is never a day of final reckoning. Everyone plays kick the can. This is point five: continuity. It is the continuity of deferred judgment (point four). The profit and loss system is not allowed to work.

Monetary reform never takes place because everyone wants to defer final judgment. Everyone wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die. Everyone wants a stable economy with growth. No one wants recession and increased bankruptcies to re-price capital goods. So, kick the can always results in another round of monetary inflation. The boom-bust cycles repeat.

This is continuity in the modern fiat money economy. The voters want it. The debtors want it. The banks want it. Businessmen want it.

The result: American prices as measured by the consumer price index have risen by a factor of 20 since the Federal Reserve System began operating in 1914. The dollar has depreciated by about 95%.

There is never a monetary reform that in fact reforms the system. All monetary reforms are applications of kick the can.
 
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The Peter Schiff video is brilliant. His oppenents laugh him off as a nutjob..one guy even recommends buying Meryll n Lynch stocks.. who later went bust and had to be bought by Bank of America.
 
BEE, affirmative action or whatever u want to call it an act to keep racism going. The shear act of choosing a person for anything because of his skin will alienate the rest of the populace. Do not think for one second the ruling party doesnt know this. Now you may ask why is this...well, simply put...it's to keep us occupied. The same with the name changes bs. and other such contraversial things. Currently the world economics is reaching a critical point and has been moving towards it for a while now...simply put, there will come into effect an international reserve bank. They want us p'd off over everything at this time so that we dont object to this institution coming to fruition. Already time magazine and other press articles have come out revealing this institute being instated. We have very little freedom, but with this bank we can be assured that what little we have left will be taken from us without us even realising it because we have to be stuck with these stupid injustices. Remember, press is very regulated by the government in this country. So, when something makes a big enough stir to be in the news...just remember that it's there for a reason...usually to distract us.
Soz for rant...just my 2c.
 
Don't apologize. I agree about the international central bank thing and the press...about the ANC not realising...

Its the fact that Keynes and his economics is so popular. The fact that Keynes wrote in the forward to the German edition of his book that his economic system is better suited to a totalitarian government escapes the economists supporting his theories.

Even people who mean well support Keynes and government policies.

I do think the ANC has its head in its ass though.
 
NAH, not their heads in their asses...they very clever keeping us occupied so we dont notice their masters' to turn us into slaves...it's already happened to a certain degree...from what I can gather we might even eventually look at a tax on the air that we breathe. But this is how I interpereted things that I read...pls do ur own research and make ur own conclusions...
 
If you do and it comes back to bite you, should you get taxpayer (Other peoples money stolen by government) in order to stay in business. Wouldn't we be better off by letting those business that made mistakes pay for them, and free up capital and labour for business that have been working, that have saved, that did not "chase" profits on paper (IOU's not cash)

I agree with you; those businesses should have paid for it. Unfortunately, the collapse of some of those banks and of Freddie Mac & Fannie Mae would have meant far more hardship to many people. Tough decision...
 
Its the fact that Keynes and his economics is so popular. The fact that Keynes wrote in the forward to the German edition of his book that his economic system is better suited to a totalitarian government escapes the economists supporting his theories.

Pure Keynesian policies haven't been used for decades. Currently, what's popular is Neo-Keynesian Synthesis, which seems to be a decent blend; better than many of the other theories that have been tried, certainly.
 
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