After Hours Freelance Advice

[AdrianH]

I had a long lost friend contact me recently and asked if we could meet up and discuss and idea that requires software developer.

Now it's been 10 years since I was last a contractor and did freelance work. I don't need the money, but the extra pocket money would be nice regardless. I also realistically can only offer at most 25 hours a week as I am full-time employed, but that would basically use up most of my free time.

Are there any fellow developers here doing extra development after hours? I have some questions:

1) Would you do work for a friend?

2) Would you accept a project of it is merely an idea that may or may not work? I've done this twice before, and both times the project never made money and I was the one who wasted time.

3) Would you accept a project if payment is based on success of project. In other words, they don't have cash now and can't pay, but can offer a percentage of profits later on?

4) If payment can be made, do you get paid per hour, or per completed set of functionality/modules? Also, what medium rate would you ask and do you only deliver on payment?

5) What's the additional monthly hours you put towards the development as I don't want to over extend myself.

6) How often do you meet with you client to discuss requirements and demo the development?

Any other tips and advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Kilgore_Trout_Redux]

1. Yes but with a contract. No deals on a handshake.
2. 99% of the time this is what happens and it is why I don't work this way. Ideas are free, the expertise to implement them isn't.
3. No pay, no work.
4. I think payment per agreed upon unit of work protects both parties but you need good documentation. Rate depends on experience.
5. I once contracted over and above a full time job and it is a quick path to burnout. 16-20 hours a week is sustainable over a few months. Any more than that for more than two months just doesn't work unless you already are single and have no life.
6. Scrum with 2-3 week sprints feels right.

 

[jax_maxit]

1. Yes but with a contract. No deals on a handshake.
2. 99% of the time this is what happens and it is why I don't work this way. Ideas are free, the expertise to implement them isn't.
3. No pay, no work.
4. I think payment per agreed upon unit of work protects both parties but you need good documentation. Rate depends on experience.
5. I once contracted over and above a full time job and it is a quick path to burnout. 16-20 hours a week is sustainable over a few months. Any more than that for more than two months just doesn't work unless you already are single and have no life.
6. Scrum with 2-3 week sprints feels right.

+1000. Though I'm not in a situation similar to OP, I've learned the hard way not to do these types of projects. If you feel like doing it, go ahead but ask for some money upfront! Not much. Just a deposit and minimal rate to see how committed they are to the project. Sounds like you'll be doing ALL the work. I work freelance full time, and wasted >3 months of my time in total, pursuing dreams/ideas/ that "may have worked" but got scrapped. What's worse was I not only did the programming...I created Facebook page, Twitter account, did the design work. Sometimes when people say they need a software dev, they mean you should do everything. Your friend doesn't sound like they have confidence in their idea.
Tl:dr If you do it, get a contract written down on paper. Ask for a small deposit. Don't write a line of code until it's paid.

 

[^^vampire^^]

1) Would you do work for a friend?
A) Yes, but they're paying for it. Definitely some piece of paper must be involved otherwise payments comes long after the work is done, or never.

2) Would you accept a project of it is merely an idea that may or may not work? I've done this twice before, and both times the project never made money and I was the one who wasted time.
A) If someone isn't willing to fund their idea then they probably aren't willing to put together a business case, market research, business plan, financial forecast, market the idea and engage the public/clients. Ideas are a dime a dozen and 99.9% of people have an idea and think it is just going to explode and make millions without them putting in the hard work.

3) Would you accept a project if payment is based on success of project. In other words, they don't have cash now and can't pay, but can offer a percentage of profits later on?
A) See 2. If your friend is confident and willing to work hard on his idea then all the forecasts, planning and projections will already be done. He should also be able to tell you how much REAL interest there is in the product or service and when the project would most likely show profits. Further to this he could probably get funding. If he's not willing to secure funding he is a chancer hoping for everything to fall into his lap.

4) If payment can be made, do you get paid per hour, or per completed set of functionality/modules? Also, what medium rate would you ask and do you only deliver on payment?
A) This is up to you and the person paying. I would do it in parts/modules so it's fair that you don't drop the payer without having something that works at least in part, while covering yourself and getting paid for what you have done.

5) What's the additional monthly hours you put towards the development as I don't want to over extend myself.
A) Anything more than 20 hours a week or 4-5 hours a day is going to start eating at you. I was doing full time work 8am-5pm and then after hours work 7pm-1am everyday for about a year and then burnt out. The thing is you can keep up the pace for quite a while but you eventually hit a point where all of a sudden you are just completely tired and cant continue. The thing that catches most people off guard is that the burnout isn't gradual but more strikes all of a sudden and so really throws a spanner in the works if you are in the middle of something like I was.

6) How often do you meet with you client to discuss requirements and demo the development?
A) I do web stuff freelance mostly so in many cases I never even meet the client face to face. Most of the changes are made and uploaded to a demo site which the client can then check and critique and give me feedback on. The only time I will really meet is if it is a bigger project R50k-R100k+, if the client specifically would like to meet face to face to meet the person who is doing the work or if there is a misunderstanding that needs to be clarified in person.

Other Advice:
* Always get some kind of money up front, some kind of deposit, especially if you are working on smaller projects. This helps as a lot of smaller projects clients find it easier to call quits on and walk away as they deem it not 100% necessary and then you are left with nothing for your time and effort up to that point. Many people say it's fine they'll get a lawyer or go to court etc etc but the costs of doing something like that will far outweigh anything you will get out of the client in time, costs, and reputation.
* If you have a problem client, try to be helpful and fulfil their requests and needs but also know when to call it quits. The time, effort and money you could wind up spending on these clients to complete the deal could cost you a lot more in the long run. These types of clients can be heavily demoralising on yourself or staff members and cause internal conflict. Way up the pro's and con's and if need be, contact the client and tell them you're not willing to continue. It's never easy to do this, especially when lots of money/income is involved, but the relief from the stress can be very liberating sometimes. Just make sure it's handled in a professional manner so that they cannot use you cancelling the deal as ammo to destroy your reputation.
* Always keep a paper trail! Anything discussed over the phone or agreed to in conversation, type up in an email straight away and get confirmation from the other party. Nothing is worse than a he said she said situation. Anything you do or are asked to do must be documented so you have some recourse.

 

[AdrianH]

@Kilgore_Trout_Redux @jax_maxit @^^vampire^^

Thank you all for your advice.

Yes, I can see that I MUST treat this like a proper business transaction and not as a "favour to a friend", and a contract is definitely required. The deposit never crossed my mind but you have all convinced me as it shows commitment from their side. Also looks like I should only commit to max 20 hours per week, regardless of what I think I can do.

I'll wait until I meet with them and depending the outcome of that meeting, I'll post some details here and ask for some opinions.

Thanks everyone

 

[envo]

1. Yes. Show me the money though.
2. Yes. Show me the money though.
3. HELL NO
4. All modules would be "costed" in hours it will take me to complete. 50% deposit on the module that will be completed. 50% upon delivery of said module and UAT. If it takes me less hours to complete, the client scores, if it takes me more, they need to be notified beforehand and a discussion be made. If it takes me longer because I can't do something specific (learn something new to solve the issue), I don't transfer the "cost" over to them.
5. 25 hours a week seems very reasonable for someone employed full time. If they insist you work more, they need to be willing to pay upfront. I normally don't do more than that a week and make time for other things (family/friends etc) first.
6. In person wherever possible.
7. Never work for friends who can't pay for development time. Treat it like you would treat any client/person. If they talk about % profit then tell them you're not interested at all as it's time you could have spent developing your own idea and make 100% profit.

Sounds very much like a recent experience I had. Got a recommendation through a friend, didn't need the money, decided "why not" and at the end the dude wanted me to "seriously consider" some drag and drop solution that costs $9 per connection. This was for a website, so imagine your site gets popular and you have to pay $9 per connection for it... anyway... told him to go fly a kite.

 

[envo]

* If you have a problem client, try to be helpful and fulfil their requests and needs but also know when to call it quits. The time, effort and money you could wind up spending on these clients to complete the deal could cost you a lot more in the long run. These types of clients can be heavily demoralising on yourself or staff members and cause internal conflict. Way up the pro's and con's and if need be, contact the client and tell them you're not willing to continue. It's never easy to do this, especially when lots of money/income is involved, but the relief from the stress can be very liberating sometimes. Just make sure it's handled in a professional manner so that they cannot use you cancelling the deal as ammo to destroy your reputation.
* Always keep a paper trail! Anything discussed over the phone or agreed to in conversation, type up in an email straight away and get confirmation from the other party. Nothing is worse than a he said she said situation. Anything you do or are asked to do must be documented so you have some recourse.

I wish my previous employer did this. After 3 years (6 years total with the company) I decided I have had enough of this 1 client and quit. I heard shortly after they terminated the contract with the client, but it was too little too late.

 

[^^vampire^^]

I wish my previous employer did this. After 3 years (6 years total with the company) I decided I have had enough of this 1 client and quit. I heard shortly after they terminated the contract with the client, but it was too little too late.

Yeah, the thing is most people only realise these issues by their own experience and generally managers or owners that aren't dealing with these clients and their headaches don't realise how stressful or demoralising this can be on their staff and generally goes untreated. I've personally found these all out the hard way but I can at least say I have the first hand experience when to say yes, no or to call it quits.

When I started my business many years ago I never had any sort of contract. Potential clients would contact me, I'd give them a price, if they accepted the price I would do the work and then invoice. Now I have a contract 10s of pages long to cover every issue I've personally experienced or have been advised could be an issue, as well forms to sign off each phase of development so they cannot come back to something and request changes without it being quoted on etc etc. The mind boggles at how many people simply want to take you for a ride, whether it be friend or foe. It's unfortunate but when I started out I was friendly to every potential customer, and I do still try to be, but clients always get seen as business transactions and treated as such with feelings left out of it. Not that I treat them badly or unfairly but you always start doing the analysis in your head from the get go of whether this person is going to be a thorn in your side that will try screw you or if you could have a flourishing business relationship with this person.

 

[me_]

As a developer, I find that I'm constantly approached by friends with ideas for apps, etc. Often they think the apps will be revolutionary, but after some probing, I have yet to find an idea worth backing.
You need to understand how big is the target market and how do they plan to monetize the app / site - do they have a realistic business case?
If you are developing a site / app in your free time, what do you have that will stop a development house from copying you and making a better app / site? The biggest barrier to entry is to have a large, complex app, but then you need dedicated time which you can't do after hours.

Based on this, I have yet to find an idea that I actually believe in and is feasible to invest in.

What will your friend be bringing to the table? Often people think if they just have an idea and it is built, it will make money, but then they aren't really bringing anything to the table and they don't really have a vested interest in the product. You need someone who is capable of marketing the solution and obtaining investment, etc. The things you won't have time to do. They need to be as invested if not more invested in the solution to drive them to make sure it works.

I currently work 9 - 11 hours a day at my current job with some work over 1 - 2 weekends a month. My free time is therefore very valuable to me and comes at a much higher cost. Furthermore, any additional work I do is taxed at my highest income tax level so the taxman takes a massive chunk of my moonlighting revenue. I therefore demand a pretty sizable hourly rate for moonlighting. If I were not getting paid (investing in the product for shares), this rate would be higher as I'm taking the risk without getting paid and this needs to be factored into the share distribution.

 

[^^vampire^^]

If someone comes to me nowadays with an idea AND all the relevant research and forecasts then I dismiss their idea straight away.
I may have the skills to do the dev work and the idea may be great, but I don't have time to do the market research and if the person hasn't done that before approaching someone they are most likely looking for a payday with no work - which will never come.