An Interesting Predicament - Contracts

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RoosTa

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I have just found our that my ISP, hasn't been taking off my monthly payments for the past 3 months. And now I'm confronted with a huge bill and somehow I'm stuck in a 12 month contact, without my knowledge.

At the end of March, my former ISP informed me at around 3pm that they would no longer provide a service and they are cancelling all accounts the next day. So I started checking out MyADSL for other ISP's and found one that looked promising. After carefully examining their options I chose the account and phoned said ISP. They confirmed the monthly payments and I hadn't made a decision if I wanted 1 or 2 accounts.I faxed them the "required" papers with my signature on and in all good will, they setup a "temp" account and I started browsing happily. Later I received the two legit accounts and all's well for the past 3 months, but did not receive the paper with the final contract details. (Big mistake)

Friday they phoned to inform me that they still have not received any payments, even though I gave them my credit card details when I initially signed up. I found out that I owe them R2064.00; R570 setup fee and and R498.00 per month (for 2 accounts). I then told them that I will pay the full amount and then immediately cancel my account, since they put me in a very difficult situation. To my surprise, the account person told me I cannot cancel my account, since I'm locked into a 12 month contract. I have asked him to fax the contract through. I have noticed that the first page and last page, with my signatures on, have the name and fax number that I have sent it from, but the middle pages with the contract details, such as 12 month contract, setup fee and the monthly payments, it's missing because I hadn't seen that in the first place.

Yes, this is purely because of negligence and assumptions. Assumptions because I've signed up with many ISP's and I assumed theirs is the same as everyone else's. Their website does not mention the setup fee nor the 12 month contract, which according to the accountant is standard with ALL their contracts. When I spoke to the sales lady (and I wish I had recorded the conversation), she never mentioned the setup fee, nor the 12 months contract. I had even asked her in "joking"-way (because of AYCE), if there is anything I should know, and stated that I assume all ISP's are the same. So it becomes a bit of a "He said, She said" situation.


I would not be stupid enough to take the 12month contract in the first place.

Now as I understand, this contract is void, since my initials or signature, do not appear on every page nor does each page contain the name and fax number from my fax machine.

Can anyone offer me some advice?

Notice: Its not my intention to deface, the ISP as yet, hence I have not mentioned their name once.

PS --- The ISP is not AYCE.
 
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Well - it's like this:
A - They offered a service.
B - You applied for a Trial of the Service (One).
C - The Trial has an expiry period after which service becomes non-trial.
D - You recieved the details of 2 legit accounts, and used them, i.e. you have accepted the service.


Now - which service you accepted can only be determined by the amount that you agree'd to pay, as you have signed no other details.

Methinks that the amount that you agree'd to pay is R498.00. Now - said ISP will indicate that that value is only available for the 12 month contract.

So - no - they are not doing anything wrong, and are not making any untoward assumptions, IF YOU SIGNED A PAPER WITH THE VAKUE OF 498.00 ON IT.

If you did not sign such a paper, then you can choose a different option (With a different value) and say that that's the service you actually applied for - which usually works out to more money (But no 12 month contract !).
 
I think hes more interested in knowing about the contract. For contract to be valid, you need to sign each and every page, part of the contract.

So, it looks like you havnt, so that is a joke of an contract.
 
Clipse said:
I think hes more interested in knowing about the contract. For contract to be valid, you need to sign each and every page, part of the contract.

So, it looks like you havnt, so that is a joke of an contract.
Click to expand...

Not true. That's true if you're signing a shareholder's agreement or some kind of deal where there is no immediate or measurable benefit/loss. With this kind of a deal, the signee has recieved services that are tangible and measureable, so only an indication of intent is required, not the entire sign every page thing.

The only available angle is the amount agree'd - the way I see it.
But - if this goes to court, besides the "bad record" that he'll get, the judge will order him to pay for what he recieved and utilised. (+ some legal fee's)
 
No, you do need to initial every page of a contract, or else they could insert other pages and say they were there - which sounds like what was done.

Sue them
 
stoke said:
Well - it's like this:
A - They offered a service.
B - You applied for a Trial of the Service (One).
C - The Trial has an expiry period after which service becomes non-trial.
D - You recieved the details of 2 legit accounts, and used them, i.e. you have accepted the service.


Now - which service you accepted can only be determined by the amount that you agree'd to pay, as you have signed no other details.

Methinks that the amount that you agree'd to pay is R498.00. Now - said ISP will indicate that that value is only available for the 12 month contract.

So - no - they are not doing anything wrong, and are not making any untoward assumptions, IF YOU SIGNED A PAPER WITH THE VAKUE OF 498.00 ON IT.

If you did not sign such a paper, then you can choose a different option (With a different value) and say that that's the service you actually applied for - which usually works out to more money (But no 12 month contract !).
Click to expand...

There is/was no other "special" account.

Don't get me wrong, the R498 per month was the verbal agreement that we had and I'm am willing to pay for it, but they did not tell me about the setup fee, nor the 12 month contract. My biggest problem is that I'm locked into a 12 month contract, which I did not know of because I did not see the 'other' pages. Fine, I accept that I should of tripple checked that, but they did not confirm this with me. A 12 month contract is very serious (to me) and was completely overlooked by the company to inform me of it, even after I had asked "is there anything I should know?", during our hasty sign-up. They should of at least contacted me with the final pages, before assuming that I had wanted it. And I should of phoned them, but we all just assume things.

Would I be able to negotiate with them, pay off the debt and cancel the account? I'm completely clueless what I should do, which is probably why my "questions" are so vague.
 
Karnaugh said:
No, you do need to initial every page of a contract, or else they could insert other pages and say they were there - which sounds like what was done.

Sue them
Click to expand...

I don't want to make this nasty, I really hope I can resolve this without the need to enter a South African court. Sueing, would be the last resort, but I'd like to confirm your comment and use this to negotiate the cancellation of the contract.

Thanks for your reply's.
 
LaRoosta - negotiation is always cheaper - doit.

Verbals do not count, so you have only agree'd to a service, now just nogotiate what service you're going to pay for. If your ISP only has 12 month contracts as service options, well, then you're a bit stucked.

Also - If you pay the "as if you're in a 12 month contract" amount, then you've basically accepted the 12 month agreement, uness you can somehow indicate that the payment is to include the cancellation of the service - so don't pay it without indicating in writing that it is for FINAL PAYMENT.

Bleugh - Methinks any company would wrather negotiate than waste money on debt collectors.
 
just on the side, whether this whole lousy situation has happened by accident or some other reason, it would be useful to know which ISP it is, that appears to be operating like this.

So I for one, am curious to know which ISP it is, just so that we all are aware of it, as well as the ISP in question being aware that they are not just dealing with one consumer, but a rather large quantity of consumers, who are paying attention to their business practices.

I don't think its defamation at all, to report your version of events in dealing with an ISP - its simply 'your version of events'. And thus reporting which ISP it is - given that you arent happy with what they seem to be suggesting - I think you're entitled to post information for the education of the rest of us.

Also - whatever is/was being said verbally, means squat. Ask them to please put what they've said in writing - especially the bits about you being liable for a 12 month contract, despite not being shown the relevant pages, or initialing them.

Let's see if they're willing to set out the facts of the matter in writing. There was a verbal agreement - thereafter a followup contract, (with a missing page that you never saw ) - I doubt they'll be stupid enough to try let it go to court.

Ask them to explain, in writing, the missing page of the contract you allegedly signed, as well as to put in writing their explanation for why they seem to think you wanted a 12 month contract in the first place. See what they say. Verbal stuff isn't proof of anything much. Getting them to admit - or at least NOT DENY - that you didn't saw the missing page of the contract you signed, (on the assumption it was simply the agreement already agreed to verbally), rather screws them up legally, I think.

Either they're real stupid, or they think they can bully consumers in order to make money from them. Play with them - ask them 'given that I never saw the missing page X of the contract, in what way exactly do you believe I am bound to any agreement with you whatsoever? And see what they say, in writing.
Anyone calls you, say "Sorry, I'd like to discuss this with you, but on legal advice, I have to ask you to please put whatever your statements, comments or questions might be, in a written form to me, and I'll respond in due course, thank you."
:P
 
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Stoke every single legit contract Ive ever signed, I had to sign every page. Even stupid cellphone contracts, based on same principle, I had to sign all pages.

And what Karnaugh said, is the exact reason. They can fill in extra information and hold you to it.

stoke said:
Not true. That's true if you're signing a shareholder's agreement or some kind of deal where there is no immediate or measurable benefit/loss. With this kind of a deal, the signee has recieved services that are tangible and measureable, so only an indication of intent is required, not the entire sign every page thing.

The only available angle is the amount agree'd - the way I see it.
But - if this goes to court, besides the "bad record" that he'll get, the judge will order him to pay for what he recieved and utilised. (+ some legal fee's)
Click to expand...
 
Interesting one.

Sounds like the same sort of thing that Telkom yellowpages is trying with me.

They have billed me for yellowpages ads. but when i ask for the contract that i signed they can't produce it.

Karnaugh it sounds right that you must initial all pages of a contract otherwise it leaves it open for abuse like a cheque with big gaps in it that can be added to. but law may say something else.

My 2 cents to you LaRoosTa - if they said somthing in the contract (the two pages you signed) about a 12 month contract or the setup fee then you probably won't win with them

but on the other had if there is no reference to the 12 month contract then offer that you will pay the outstanding amount and then you will cancel your subscription with immediate effect in writing.

try to get out the setup fee to start with then if unsuccessful offer to pay for the services used end of story klar.

If the signed contract has nothing about 12 month contract... they got nothing on you.
 
LoneGunman said:
just on the side, whether this whole lousy situation has happened by accident or some other reason, it would be useful to know which ISP it is, that appears to be operating like this.

So I for one, am curious to know which ISP it is, just so that we all are aware of it, as well as the ISP in question being aware that they are not just dealing with one consumer, but a rather large quantity of consumers, who are paying attention to their business practices.

I don't think its defamation at all, to report your version of events in dealing with an ISP - its simply 'your version of events'. And thus reporting which ISP it is - given that you arent happy with what they seem to be suggesting - I think you're entitled to post information for the education of the rest of us.

Also - whatever is/was being said verbally, means squat. Ask them to please put what they've said in writing - especially the bits about you being liable for a 12 month contract, despite not being shown the relevant pages, or initialing them.

Let's see if they're willing to set out the facts of the matter in writing. There was a verbal agreement - thereafter a followup contract, (with a missing page that you never saw ) - I doubt they'll be stupid enough to try let it go to court.

Ask them to explain, in writing, the missing page of the contract you allegedly signed, as well as to put in writing their explanation for why they seem to think you wanted a 12 month contract in the first place. See what they say. Verbal stuff isn't proof of anything much. Getting them to admit - or at least NOT DENY - that you didn't saw the missing page of the contract you signed, (on the assumption it was simply the agreement already agreed to verbally), rather screws them up legally, I think.

Either they're real stupid, or they think they can bully consumers in order to make money from them. Play with them - ask them 'given that I never saw the missing page X of the contract, in what way exactly do you believe I am bound to any agreement with you whatsoever? And see what they say, in writing.
Anyone calls you, say "Sorry, I'd like to discuss this with you, but on legal advice, I have to ask you to please put whatever your statements, comments or questions might be, in a written form to me, and I'll respond in due course, thank you."
:P
Click to expand...

Sound advice, another lesson learnt. I will ask them to fax me a copy of whatever is said in our 'negotiation', in writing with signatures (I'm still waiting for them to phone me back with a response [I'm quite certain they speaking to lawyers, as a precaution]).

I don't think this is the company's fault, but rather the sales person. I honestly do not believe that it was the company's intention to 'screw me'. That is why I will not mention the company's name. Though, their account department also needs a slap on the wrist for allowing my account to reach this high after numerous failed attempts to debit my account. If they do not seem willing to negotiate, only then I will mention their name.

This should also be a lesson to all and not make the same mistake I have, by assuming things.

PS Thanks stoke, I have taken your advice and have starter negotiating with them. Pity the person I need to speak to had already left, but someone down the line said that the 12month contract shouldn't be a problem to cancel, but it's still unconfirmed and I need to wait till tomorrow.
 
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Well, it seems DataPro are not interested in resolving this issue. DataPro, a ISO 9001:2000 certified company is the ISP that duped me into a 12 month contract without my knowledge and it seems they are waiting to wack another R500 on to my "account" since I have not received any calls back from them since the fiasco on Thursday the 23 June. Today is the 29th of June and the sales lady, Sue Wilmot is too "busy" to phone me back after leaving several URGENT messages. I even asked the front desk lady to paste a post-it note on her monitor and also spoke to her colleage who said he'll brief her ASAP.

http://www.datapro.co.za/products/adsl_standard.htm

No where on their web site do they mention a 12month contract, nor a setup fee (Yet they mention the Telkom ADSL setup fee) neither did the sales-lady, after I had asked, mention the 12month contact nor the setup fee. Due to the situation (read my previous posts), I did not see nor sign the paper with the "contract" details on it. As futher proof, I will scan the "contract" and post it here. You will clearly see that "page 2" does not even have my fax number, which is printed by their fax machine as it receives it and cannot be cut-off, nor does my signature appear on this page.

DataPro, if you want to resolve this, please phone me urgently back. I will not pay the outstanding amount, unless this issue has been resolved.

Leroux Michelson
 
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Similar scenario, and how I got out of it:
I had adsl a while ago, then phoned and cancelled my phone line+adsl service. Ok, they said. That was that (to cancel, a phone call was and still si sufficient)
I then got cabel tv+phone+cable modem, and merrily went on my way. 3 or 4 YEARS later, out of the fsking blue I received a bill for close to £1300 (my monthly adsl charge x 40 or so)

After laughing my head off, cryng a bit and wacking the wall I sent a polite email, asking what type of a business
a) doesnt cancel an account when requested
b) doesnt collect monthly fees as per the contract (the contract stated the money would be collected once a month via direct debit)
c) expect me to cough up £1300 after all this time.

A bit of to and froing later and they actually backed down. I asked to check their usage logs to see how much I had used in the past few years...zero.

The main thing that swinged in my way (ignoring other routine stuff like lawyers etc) was that I asked them if they wanted me to go to every adsl-hype site and spread my story of their incompetence. It is only slander if it isnt true. And in this case it was true.

I'm not saying you can get out of it this way, but companies generally hold their public image and consumer brand name in high regard. It costs a lot to build up goodwill. Perhaps subtle negotiations on this are in order.
 
I will be moving to another ISP, which I will apply for today or tomorrow (most probably Axxess) and I will simply refuse to pay DataPro any more than what I am owing them, today: R2064 (3 months x 2 accounts + R570 setup fee). Until such time that they pick up the phone to sort out the problem, I will simply not be bothered to pay them and I will be ignoring this bogus contract completely.
 
LaRoosTa - just as an extra precaution, (I dont recall if you have a debit order with these guys) but if so, instruct your bank to stop any payments - and make sure your bank understands that the precise figure that might get deducted is uncertain, but regardless, you want it on record at the bank that this company has no right to remove any monies.
(If you do have debit order arrangement and u have the sms alert facility, keep an eye open and as soon as the company tries to deduct money, contact your bank and reverse the payment and stop it.)
 
Thanks to everyone for their advice/help.

LG, though they still do require the last 3 digits on my card to complete the transaction, as a precaution I will phone my bank and inform them of the situation.

I've also sent an email to the MD at Datapro, but all I'm getting back is a Out of Office reply.
 
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