ANC and DA support for Restitution Bill risks disaster - IRR

[Sherbang]

Yeah, I know.



Is this also one of those 'principles' that only applies to the Apartheid government and not any theft that happened before, i.e. the whole history of settlement and displacement in Southern Africa by various peoples?

And what about people (perhaps 4 or 5 different people) who bought property from someone legally, thus didn't steal anything, but now almost a century down the line someone rocks up and says their ancestors lived there. Do they have no say in the matter?

Well it refers specifically to land that was 'legally' taken under apartheid laws. I think you would have a hard time proving what land was stolen prior to that and that's not really the government's responsibility. This is about the government returning land that was taken by the government.

As for those that bought the land after it was stolen, this is why the government has been prepared to pay for the land.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

Well it refers specifically to land that was 'legally' taken under apartheid laws. I think you would have a hard time proving what land was stolen prior to that and that's not really the government's responsibility. This is about the government returning land that was taken by the government.

But theft is theft, "irrespective of the time passed".?

I like the idea in principle, and cases like District 6 seems quite clear cut to me. The people who lived there and were removed are still alive and want to move back. This can reasonably be facilitated, methinks.

But people who want to claim a random piece of land because their grandfather was buried there 80 years ago seems preposterous to me. Especially if you want to uproot an established family who have perhaps lived there for a long time. This is perpetuating the exact same crime, and these people didn't steal the land.

As for those that bought the land after it was stolen, this is why the government has been prepared to pay for the land.

Redeemed and that turd he admires doesn't seem to think it should be necessary. They want to steal the land, apparently.

 

[Sherbang]

But theft is theft, "irrespective of the time passed".?

I like the idea in principle, and cases like District 6 seems quite clear cut to me. The people who lived there and were removed are still alive and want to move back. This can reasonably be facilitated, methinks.

But people who want to claim a random piece of land because their grandfather was buried there 80 years ago seems preposterous to me. Especially if you want to uproot an established family who have perhaps lived there for a long time. This is perpetuating the exact same crime, and these people didn't steal the land.

Redeemed and that turd he admires doesn't seem to think it should be necessary. They want to steal the land, apparently.

Well this is the point. You can't just claim a piece of land because grandfather was buried there 80 years ago. The Land Restitution act doesn't allow for that. It must be land that was taken under the Natives Land Act No. 27 of 1913 (which enforced that Black Africans were no longer be able to own, or even rent, land outside of designated reserves) or subsequent apartheid laws such as the group areas act.
There are records of this, of the land that was taken, which is why it's easier to prove in court. The claimant still has to prove that they, or their direct ascendant lived on that land though.
Also, another small point of clarification - the Apartheid Government only came into power in 1948 so this restitution law does in fact apply to the 'legal' theft that occurred prior to the formal apartheid government

 

[Redeemed]

As for those that bought the land after it was stolen, this is why the government has been prepared to pay for the land.

So if I buy your stolen car I should be given my money back before you can have it?

 

[semaphore]

Failed in zim will fail here. There is no point in giving land to people that are not skilled in using it. Look at zim, so many empty and baron farms because of unskilled people that reclaimed their land. So ye sure give the land to these so called claimants and enjoy paying 50R an orange when we produce nothing locally.

 

[Sherbang]

So if I buy your stolen car I should be given my money back before you can have it?

Say the government took my car under a law banning me from owning a car and then sold it to you.
Then later a new government admits it was wrong to take my car and wants to give it back to me,
then yes, the government should give you your money back and give me my car back.

 

[Sherbang]

Failed in zim will fail here. There is no point in giving land to people that are not skilled in using it. Look at zim, so many empty and baron farms because of unskilled people that reclaimed their land. So ye sure give the land to these so called claimants and enjoy paying 50R an orange when we produce nothing locally.

It's not only farmland, look at district 6 in Cape Town - over 60,000 people were forcibly removed during the 1970s by the apartheid government under the Group Areas Act.

 

[semaphore]

It's not only farmland, look at district 6 in Cape Town - over 60,000 people were forcibly removed during the 1970s by the apartheid government under the Group Areas Act.

Did they have deeds to that land? Did they pay for it? I highly doubt it. If they did then i agree it should be returned, but if they moved there and claimed it was theirs without payment then they have zero claim as well.

 

[2026]

So if I buy your stolen car I should be given my money back before you can have it?

So I bought (via a loan ) this piece of land from some guy the died some years ago. The money was passed on to cover his debt and what was left ultimately landed in the hands of his kids who are rather far away. Someone else has the documents and proof claim this land... this puts me **** out of luck with no land and a bank debt over my head?

 

[Sherbang]

Did they have deeds to that land? Did they pay for it? I highly doubt it. If they did then i agree it should be returned, but if they moved there and claimed it was theirs without payment then they have zero claim as well.

Well this is what they have to prove. You can't just rock up and claim it.
Also, if it was land that didn't belong to anyone previously and they had settled on it then they do have a claim if they were forcibly removed.

 

[Redeemed]

Say the government took my car under a law banning me from owning a car and then sold it to you.
Then later a new government admits it was wrong to take my car and wants to give it back to me,
then yes, the government should give you your money back and give me my car back.

Fine, but there were people who were just granted stolen land by the government and kept it for generations.

 

[semaphore]

Well this is what they have to prove. You can't just rock up and claim it.
Also, if it was land that didn't belong to anyone previously and they had settled on it then they do have a claim if they were forcibly removed.

Tell that to the thousands of native american indians living in reservations.

 

[ToxicBunny]

Fine, but the were people who were just granted stolen land by the government and kept it for generations.

So because my grandfather was granted land by the government (be it stolen or not), then I must now lose out when it comes time to sell it, or have it reclaimed by the government?

You really have absolutely no grasp of basic economics do you?

 

[semaphore]

So because my grandfather was granted land by the government (be it stolen or not), then I must now lose out when it comes time to sell it, or have it reclaimed by the government?

You really have absolutely no grasp of basic economics do you?

With an idol like Malema cant you expect anything more?

 

[Sherbang]

Tell that to the thousands of native american indians living in reservations.

How is that relevant to the land restitution program going on in South Africa?

 

[Sherbang]

So because my grandfather was granted land by the government (be it stolen or not), then I must now lose out when it comes time to sell it, or have it reclaimed by the government?

You really have absolutely no grasp of basic economics do you?

Somebody loses out. Whether it's the person who was forcibly removed or your grandfather who was granted stolen land - someone is going to lose out. The whole situation is unfair. Which is why the government has been paying for the land.

 

[semaphore]

How is that relevant to the land restitution program going on in South Africa?

Well its your logic, they should be entitled for their land as well. It was a random thought, dont stress so much. I'm sure you will get your land back.

 

[2026]

Somebody loses out. Whether it's the person who was forcibly removed or your grandfather who was granted stolen land - someone is going to lose out. The whole situation is unfair. Which is why the government has been paying for the land.

Someone has already lost, their lives were ruined by the forcing of taking of land. How do we fix it? By ruining lives and forcing the taking of land. Brilliant.

 

[Nick333]

I'm just clarifying that Restitution of Land Rights, which the article is about, has nothing to do with demographics.

I also don't think it's a purely emotive issue as Nick333 says. The claimants have to prove that the land was stolen from them by the Apartheid government and these claims are assessed by judges in court as to their legitimacy. I think we can all agree that stolen property should be returned, irrespective of the amount of time that has passed since the theft, so long as it can be proven to be the case.

I'm sure it's not just emotive. Their are probably people who genuinely want land and to be farmers. Just not, I suspect, that many. There are other ways of compensating people for stolen property. Monetary compensation might work in some cases.

 

[Sherbang]

Well its your logic, they should be entitled for their land as well. It was a random thought, dont stress so much. I'm sure you will get your land back.

It's not my logic, it's the law in South Africa regarding land restitution. I'm not a claimant to land here so I don't expect any land back, since none was ever taken from me.