Anti-Americanism

[Alan]

How ironic for this artical to come out the BBC . I suppose they got to try have some semblance of balance

'Death to US': Anti-Americanism examined

He argues anti-Americanism is often a cover for hatreds with little justification in fact. His three part series takes him to Cairo, Caracas and Washington but it begins where anti-Americanism began - in Paris.

In the Abbey Churchyard in the lovely English city of Bath, groups of demonstrators, many - though not all - of them Quakers, regularly gather to protest against the iniquities of the world.

My dear mother Gloria Webb, who died last year, was one of the protesters. In her day, she was an energetic duffle-coated figure who wanted to ban the bomb, stop wars of all kinds and suffering anywhere.

She was a wonderful person, my mum, and so were her friends. Yet it always struck me, when she told me about these protests (and when, I freely confess, I attended them with enthusiasm as a youngster) that there was an odd one-sidedness to the game.

The protests against nuclear weapons, for instance, concentrated on American weapons. The anti-war rallies were against American-led wars. The anti death penalty campaign focused on Texas.


A pattern was emerging and has never seriously been altered. A pattern of willingness to condemn America for the tiniest indiscretion - or to magnify those indiscretions - while leaving the murderers, dictators, and thieves who run other nations oddly untouched.

Anti-Americanism was born in France. And here's a fascinating fact: it was born well before the United States existed. It was not caused by Coca-Cola, or McDonald's, or Hollywood or George W Bush.

Washington is grand but Washington was designed by a Frenchman and his vision didn't fit the rest of the nation. America is ordinary. Go on say it out loud on the streets of Paris: "America is ordinary". It celebrates the pursuit of small-scale happiness - in families and communities - and that is what the anti-Americans can't stand.

The kind of anti-Americanism fostered by French intellectuals down the centuries revolves around intense dislike of what America is - not what it does

And this is not a recent migration brought on by Mr Bush. In May 1944 (just weeks before American GIs landed on the beaches of Normandy), Hubert Beuve-Mery, the founder of Le Monde newspaper - certainly no mouthpiece of the right - wrote this: "The Americans represent a real danger for France, different from the one posed by Germany or the one with which the Russians may - in time - threaten us. The Americans may have preserved a cult of Liberty but they do not feel the need to liberate themselves from the servitude which their capitalism has created. "

Interesting....

I'ts strange to see this bigotry even in this day and age. Even stranger is it oftens comes from those who were so quick to proclaim outrage at the bigotry in this country under Apartheid and although far less vocal at the time bigotry in Nazi Germany.

In both cases the bigotry become entrenched in the societies fueled by propaganda until it became the "in thing" to degrade others because of differences in culture and to instill your "superiority". Well today Anti-Americanism is entrenched in society from an avalanche of liberal propaganda and those very same "outraged" people have become exactly what they supposedly despised.

Amazing how things change

 

[neio]

Good article

 

[w1z4rd]

wtf is americanism?

 

[Alan]

The protests against nuclear weapons, for instance, concentrated on American weapons. The anti-war rallies were against American-led wars. The anti death penalty campaign focused on Texas.

This quote was of particular interest. Why do they do it?

Here's an explanation.

First of all we know they are peaceniks. That is they have a deep loathing of violence and suffering.


Confronted with a world of violence and suffering with opponents facing each other with the means to escalate the violence and suffering causes a problem for them. For these peaceniks to influence the world around, them violence is not an option because of their core beliefs. They can only rely on "dialogue" or more precisely, peaceful protest. Unfortunatly "dialogue" or peaceful protest counts for nothing when it comes to ideologies like Islamic Extremism , Communism and Facsim. We have seen this proven through history.

This leaves the peaceniks with a real problem. The only side they can influence is "western democracy" due to two reasons 1) freedom of speech and 2) democracy ie convince individuals through "dialogue" of their views who then vote the appropriate candidate into power.

So they bring to bear their influence on this one side because due to their beliefs it is their only choice. This brings another belief of theirs to the fore which I discussed in this thread http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?p=980735#post980735

This belief that the one side can convince the other side of how "wrong" or "evil" their actions are through "dialogue" or their own actions. This is based on their belief that when it come down to it all, humans are peaceful beings and have to have a "threat" or "legitimate cause" to go to the extremes of being violent. We see this argument often in the guise of "people don't just blow themselves up. They are not animals. There must be a reason why a person(who has the same values as I, as do all humans) to go to such extremes" or " if the west decommissioned it's nukes others will follow suit because those others "have the same values as I as do all humans".


It's the same mentality as this

So true. Yet people still refuse to believe that. They still believe that dialogue can solve any problem. Their belief that "force" is wrong and "evil' and hence they'd never resort to it along with the belief that they can always convince their opponent of that through "dialogue" is crazy IMO. All it does is actually encourage force since the opponent knows he/she won't get any in return.

If a criminal breaks into your house intent on killing you, you don't sit him down and try through "dialogue" to convince how evil and wrong his actions are and you wouldn't sink so low as to resort to it yourself. What do you think he is gonna do. Have an attack of conscience and say "sorry" then turn and walk out the door . Cr@p He's gonna put a bullet in your thick skull while being relieved and encouraged by how easy it was.

So their only hope for a "changing the world" hangs on these beliefs. That every human is at his core is peace loving and against suffering like them. The only way for them to push for this change is exert their influence on the only side they can and then, when in control of that side, appeal to other side's conscience through appeasement or, in other words, removing any "threats of violence" to the other side (remember violence is below them and the otherside at it's core is exactly like them *peacefull* and hence only reactionary to threats) and of course dialogue to appeal to their inner 'peacenik'.


For them to think that others could actually not be like them. A society where their values are not valued at all scares them deeply because to accept that is to accept that there is a threat to them of violence and suffering. Faced with that they have only two options if attacked. 1) fight back (unacceptable to them because violence goes against their deepest beliefs) or 2) surrender ( again unacceptable because that means living under the oppression of a violent and suffering society). So you can see why they won't accept this reality.

But as we have seen through history this kind of belief system only encourages those who don't hold those same beliefs to act violently. They know full well violence is not an option to these people and the only way to stop a violent act is to respond with violence. Take away that response and the attacker has nothing in his way to stop him.

Be it a criminal or ideology it matters not.

History has proven it.

 

[neio]

All the so called peace nicks/environmentalists and liberals are really watermelons, green on the outside but red on the inside. They support communism and therefore hate all that America represents. (Nice sweeping statement)

 

[Geriatrix]

On a side note, don't confuse anti-Bushism(if thats even a word) with Anti-Americanism.

I suspect much of the distaste with America throughout the world would not have been to the extent it is now if Bush didn't run the show in the states.

 

[icyrus]

On a side note, don't confuse anti-Bushism(if thats even a word) with Anti-Americanism.

I suspect much of the distaste with America throughout the world would not have been to the extent it is now if Bush didn't run the show in the states.

That is a little naive, the US was detested across the world before bush and will be after him. He has just made things worse with his blundering buffoonery.

 

[Geriatrix]

He has just made things worse with his blundering buffoonery.

Dude, thats exactly what I said.

Edit: For clarity, what I meant to say was that a lot of people talk about Bush, but its perceived as Anti-Americanism. The recent surge Anti-Americanism can be traced to Bush and his policies, wars and even ignorant comments.

 

[kilo39]

(without having read the article, or even your post in depth alanf)

Wasn't there a (famous) book "An American in Paris?" What of the jazz era with americans flocking to Paris in search of "the artistic life" and "freedom?"

I have even seen the occassional story of americans leaving america today and living in France in preference to america (and free of the yokes of the neocons.)

Where did Jim Morrison die? Why was he there?

Protesting the death penalty in Texas is natural (as there is no death penalty in the uk.)

The last fiasco of the invasion of Iraq was a good example: france said america had no case (one of the few countries who did.) The argument over "french fries." Turns out france was right (george bush was lying and created false evidence to show wmd and al queada connections. Alanf? Read my lips: lying.)

France is also quite "protective" of their language and their culture (and view american movies, coca-cola, etc, as aspects of imperialism, which on many levels they surely are.)

The brit nuke protesters didn't just protest american nukes they protested all nukes but then as now america is certainly the majority and receives the most protest. (Surely wasn't just a weapon issue but nuke power in general.)

Saw a program sometime ago: one of the neocon architects living in France; why? Because he likes the culture and the atmosphere (escaping exactly the things that make frenchman view americans as brash an uncultured: surely true!)

France welcomed americans with open arms after the 2ndWW. It is americas own fault france now views them as a bunch of warmongers determined to dilute their culture and their language.

Anti-Americanism was born in France. And here's a fascinating fact: it was born well before the United States existed. It was not caused by Coca-Cola, or McDonald's, or Hollywood or George W Bush.

Surely broad sweeping statements. Yes, french intellectuals and their notions of freedom which france was 'created' on, and which has not been evident in american actions and policy of late.

Washington is grand but Washington was designed by a Frenchman and his vision didn't fit the rest of the nation. America is ordinary. Go on say it out loud on the streets of Paris: "America is ordinary". It celebrates the pursuit of small-scale happiness - in families and communities - and that is what the anti-Americans can't stand.

More of the same (how are mega-cities, or gas guzzlers, the pursuit of small-scale happiness?) Please, more nonsense.

The kind of anti-Americanism fostered by French intellectuals down the centuries revolves around intense dislike of what America is - not what it does

Surely exactly the opposite; what it does, how it does it, and the impact on the rest of the world.

I'ts strange to see this bigotry even in this day and age. Even stranger is it oftens comes from those who were so quick to proclaim outrage at the bigotry in this country under Apartheid and although far less vocal at the time bigotry in Nazi Germany.

Ag please. The alanf thumsuck; need I remind you this country 'almost' sided with the Nazis?

In both cases the bigotry become entrenched in the societies fueled by propaganda until it became the "in thing" to degrade others because of differences in culture and to instill your "superiority". Well today Anti-Americanism is entrenched in society from an avalanche of liberal propaganda and those very same "outraged" people have become exactly what they supposedly despised.

More thumbsuck. "The flight of a dead arrow." How on one hand can you point to french intellectuals (something that has been around for a long time) then state "Well today Anti-Americanism is entrenched in society from an avalanche of liberal propaganda and those very same "outraged" people have become exactly what they supposedly despised." Please, if they have been around since before america became america (as you state) then what does that make of the rest of your statement?

Amazing how things change

Amazing how things stay the same.

 

[Rikus]

wtf is americanism?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americanism

Google is your friend.

 

[noxibox]

red on the inside

I'll bet everyone is red on the inside.

 

[kilo39]

Typical. See you don't read. You admit it yourself. But hey if you block out what you don't want to "read" that makes it easier for you. Also explains why you want to block others from "reading" opinions you don't want them to see.

Please take your thumb out of your mouth.

I read most things (except blatant rightwing propaganda which I can sometimes skim, I mean, what's different?)

You really do seem to have some fixation with the 2ndWW (there are other books out there you know?)

So what. Some peacenik hippie musician moved to France . Oh yes to you lot a talented musician mixed with a large dose of recreational drugs makes one enlightend to the happenings of the world

As usual I am glad you trash "genius" and "truth," typical of an american: no culture (and no brain, and no coherent thought.) Having said that I say it again: I admire many americans just not the yokels so aptly displayed by you (even on this thread and in your last response, which no, I didn't read in full.) Why should I? Are you paying for my time and what I concentrate on?? Typical non-tolerance (which you accuse me of.)

Next time/post maybe.

 

[Alan]

I read most things (except blatant rightwing propaganda which I can sometimes skim, I mean, what's different?)

Oh I forgot the BBC spews blantant rightwing propaganda

You really do seem to have some fixation with the 2ndWW (there are other books out there you know?)

Not really. You just have exactly the same mentality as was prevalent at the time just before war broke out.

As usual I am glad you trash "genius" and "truth," typical of an american: no culture (and no brain, and no coherent thought.)

More of it seeps out

Typical non-tolerance (which you accuse me of.)

So I don't "tolerate" religious extremists who willingly attack civilians and try to enforce their extremism on others. You on the other hand have a problem tolerating people expressing their views on a forum yet have no problem tolerating those extremists.

 

[PeterCH]

Anti-Americanism = Jealousy.

 

[Rikus]

Hey, slow down you two!
I'm still google'ing "peacenik liberal"

 

[supersunbird]

There is only one reason for my anti-americanism, G W Bush, and the Americans RE-electing him after they had seen how stupid he is...

 

[PeterCH]

There is only one reason for my anti-americanism, G W Bush, and the Americans RE-electing him after they had seen how stupid he is...

GW is not any better or worse than other presidents out there, ours included.

 

[supersunbird]

GW is not any better or worse than other presidents out there, ours included.

I know there are a lot of retarded state leaders, but Bush is pretty stupid even in those ranks...

 

[Amerikanse]

France is also quite "protective" of their language and their culture (and view american movies, coca-cola, etc, as aspects of imperialism, which on many levels they surely are.)

It ain't imperialism if you buy it. And they ain't being forced to either.

There is only one reason for my anti-americanism, G W Bush, and the Americans RE-electing him after they had seen how stupid he is...

I call garbage. If W is so stupid, then how could he be so devilishly clever in rigging 9/11 to justify his imperialist wars? BTW, W was re-elected on more than just the war--he purported to be socially conservative as well. Unfortunately he has not had much tome for domestic pursuits, but that is indeed the price of doing business.

 

[Nanfeishen]

Anti-Americanism = Jealousy.

Jealousy?? Not likely.

The anti-nuke marches and demonstrations held in Britain, were actually in protest against the Americans basing nuclear capable bombers on British soil, and about America using British soil for basing Nuclear weapons.
At the height of the "cold war", many Britains saw the American bases as being possible targets for the Soviet Union's nuclear forces, and therefore the American bases were seen as hazardous to the British public, who lived in close proximity to the bases.

My personal dislike for America, stems from their policies, especially their foreign policies and trade policies towards most other countries and nations.
Secondly America is a country built on broken promises and treaties, if one looks at the history, one will see that the government broke every single treaty ever signed between them and the Native Americans.
In the land of the free, the original inhabitants and their descendants, are still not free, are still persecuted, and many still live in "locations", not much better than our squatter camps.

Considering that many of you come from a country that saw persecution of the indigenous people, and still see the legacy of that today, in many aspects of this country, it surprises me that so many of you support a country, and defend its values so much, considering that most of those values have no value or meaning to anybody, other than Americans themselves.