Well the person you spoke to was wrong. The law is very clear on this.
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Any dual citizenship gurus here?
- Thread starter ChocolateBadger
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Well the person you spoke to was wrong. The law is very clear on this.
Dave
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You are wrong, if you apply for citizenship then you need to tell SA, applying for a passport when you are already a citizen (by birth or descent) is just the act of applying for the little book called a passport.
As has been said, applying for a passport and applying for citizenship are completely different matters.
BlindMelonChitlin
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In not arguing legalities, merely stating what I was told to do.
http://southafricahouseuk.com/passports/psprt_citret.html
It makes sense to not need to apply for retention when citizenship acquisition is not a voluntary process but it was no effort and I was told by more than one person at DHA to do it, so I did and have a little piece of paper stating that I retain SA citizenship.
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You were probably told incorrect information because you supplied incorrect information (i.e. incorrectly told them you were applying for citizenship instead of merely applying for a passport, the two actions you conflated here).
Dave
Honorary Master
Exactly, Blindmelonchitlin seems fixated by the idea that applying for a first UK Passport = applying for citizenship. It doesn't, that's like saying applying for a UK Drivers Licence = applying for citizenship, they are completely separate, independent applications.
A person can apply for UK citizenship and NOT apply for a passport, they can also apply for a first UK passport and not apply for citizenship.
Now you've lost me. Fair enough applying for citizenship but not a passport, but does getting a passport not come with immediate citizenship? Surely there is no application needed for citizenship if you get a passport? Is it not implied then?
I have never applied for retention, because the official websites say that I don't have to because I gained British citizenship before I was 18, and also long before this practice was implemented.
As for citizenship being the same as a passport, that's not quite correct. I was registered as a citizen when I was born. I have two birth certificates. One from SA and one from the UK (my parents organised that). I didn't need a passport at that time.
I'm not sure of the merit of the arguments around naturalization vs birth right, it's quite possible that they are handled differently and that when you gain citizenship by birth right you might be considered a citizen from birth (under 18) and were merely not recognized as such. I really don't know.
As for citizenship being the same as a passport, that's not quite correct. I was registered as a citizen when I was born. I have two birth certificates. One from SA and one from the UK (my parents organised that). I didn't need a passport at that time.
I'm not sure of the merit of the arguments around naturalization vs birth right, it's quite possible that they are handled differently and that when you gain citizenship by birth right you might be considered a citizen from birth (under 18) and were merely not recognized as such. I really don't know.
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Dave
Honorary Master
A person could be born abroad to British parents, so has a foreign citizenship (eg SA), they live in SA for their childhood and then decide they want to get a UK passport, they don't need to apply for UK citizenship as they were born to UK parents and so were a citizen by birth, they then just apply for their first UK passport, no need to apply for citizenship as it was conferred at birth.
Whatzmyname
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The less Home Affairs knows the better. As far as I know that rule only applies if you attained another passport after the age of 18. Just continue as per normal. Nobody can strip you of your citizenship.
IdlePhaedrus
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^^^
What the last two posters said.
In theory, if you apply for citizenship over the age of 18 you should get a letter from HA authorising you to do so, else, in theory, you could be stripped of your ZA citizenship.
However, as far as I am aware, this has never actually been tested in court, and may well be unconstitutional (in my opinion). I know a ton of people who have not got the authorisation letter and have never had a problem entering or exiting ZA. Some have even entered and exited on other passports.
In the OP's case this does not apply, and there is no way his ZA citizenship can be revoked since he has had dual passports from age 10.
Your philosophy should be, don't tell any government anything, unless you really really have to
What the last two posters said.
In theory, if you apply for citizenship over the age of 18 you should get a letter from HA authorising you to do so, else, in theory, you could be stripped of your ZA citizenship.
However, as far as I am aware, this has never actually been tested in court, and may well be unconstitutional (in my opinion). I know a ton of people who have not got the authorisation letter and have never had a problem entering or exiting ZA. Some have even entered and exited on other passports.
In the OP's case this does not apply, and there is no way his ZA citizenship can be revoked since he has had dual passports from age 10.
Your philosophy should be, don't tell any government anything, unless you really really have to
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IdlePhaedrus
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With regards to the constitutional argument:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapter_Two_of_the_Constitution_of_South_Africa#Citizenship
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapter_Two_of_the_Constitution_of_South_Africa#Citizenship
BlindMelonChitlin
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How does the UK see me prior to my passport app? Perhaps it's not citizenship application, but I still had to provide proof of eligibility for citizenship and they had to agree / approve SOMETHING... It was more than merely providing a passport.
So they can deny my passport application, I assume they can't deny my right to citizenship? They seem to hint right throughout the process that the application can be turned down for a number of reasons.
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That's what I said
Citizenship is implied with a successful passport application.
My youngest is SA born and has both passports (I'm Scottish) so he can go to live in UK whenever he wants (except he's only 10)..The passport makes him a citizen out of hand.
Dave
Honorary Master
You would just submit your birth certificate and passport/birth certificate of your parents. Simple as that. They would only deny you the passport if you aren't eligible.
I can't think of an example of how or why this would ever be the case. So, no!
Dave
Honorary Master
That's what I said
Citizenship is implied with a successful passport application.
My youngest is SA born and has both passports (I'm Scottish) so he can go to live in UK whenever he wants (except he's only 10)..The passport makes him a citizen out of hand.
We are in agreement, except the passport didn't make him a citizen, he would still be a citizen sans passport, you being his father did
.BlindMelonChitlin
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Passport can be denied if I have criminal record etc. surely... So am I still a citizen? And is this actually recorded somewhere?
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We are in agreement, except the passport didn't make him a citizen, he would still be a citizen sans passport, you being his father did
But I'd imagine he'd have no way to prove he's a citizen unless he had a UK passport. If he entered the UK on a SA passport, wouldn't he be subject to the rules of his visa?
I can't imagine him getting a job or a tax number or anything else if he's on a SA passport but is telling everyone "it's okay, my dad was born here"
They don't necessarily have to "see" you before your first passport application at all. In my case, my birth wasn't even registered in the UK, but due to my father being born in Scotland all I had to do is send the correct documentation (birth certificates etc) to prove that I was already a citizen.
And yes, they can decline to send you a passport for a few reasons, like failure to pay for it, missing documentation if it's required to prove you're a citizen, if you're a suspected terrorist, awaiting trial etc.