Article: Key points in latest WikiLeaks revelations

Wow! Epic Gripping stuff! Devastating and Delicious, No really, I'm totally enthralled :rolleyes:

I haven't been this excited since my Goldfish died.

And in other gripping news leaked from the Pentagon.... Marines prefer to use the third level floor bathroom because the attendant there uses Lavender deodorant spray.
 
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Lol Gary. You're trolling every WikiLeaks article that's being posted :)

Class.
 
Lol Gary. You're trolling every WikiLeaks article that's being posted :)

Class.

One man's Troll is another man's Freedom Fighter! :p

But seriously... It's not the first time on this forum I have taken an unpopular stance... and not the last probably.

Dun worry... I can handle it. Got my big girl panties on.
 
One man's Troll is another man's Freedom Fighter! :p

But seriously... It's not the first time on this forum I have taken an unpopular stance...

It's not that you're taking an unpopular stance. It's that the reasons you give for taking your stance are suspiciously flimsy:

1. Julian Assange's name is actually Julian AssAngel.
2. He must have an anti-American agenda to be releasing so much stuff about America.
3. He's stealing donations in order to live in luxury.
4. You never trusted him from the start.

Oh, and there's some spurious stuff about wikileaks causing collateral damage - which may very well even be true. However, firstly it's impossible to prove, secondly the information released isn't all that groundbreaking anyway, and thirdly - people die every single day, in large numbers, often due to the mismanagement of the governments tasked to protect them.

You have not shown that the revelation of government secrets will cause governments to do their jobs less well. You have not shown that revealing government secrets will cause more death and hardship than is already experienced. You have not shown - or even attempted to show - that putting government activities up for public scrutiny is counter-productive.

You need to do these things in order to support your stance. You don't have to. But it would help people to understand your point of view better.

Of course, you could also just continue to call anyone who disagrees with your position guilty of idiocy. (The "You're too dumb to understand" argument.) I guess that's probably more fun and takes less effort, so off you go. ;-)
 
I'm with gary on this, it's a bunch of opinions and it's no surprise that politicians have opinions that they keep to themself in the interest of national diplomacy.

The majority of this info is nothing more than gossip... he said she said. True or not, it's not more than individuals opinons being publically expressed..
 
It's not that you're taking an unpopular stance. It's that the reasons you give for taking your stance are suspiciously flimsy:

1. Julian Assange's name is actually Julian AssAngel.
2. He must have an anti-American agenda to be releasing so much stuff about America.
3. He's stealing donations in order to live in luxury.
4. You never trusted him from the start.

Oh, and there's some spurious stuff about wikileaks causing collateral damage - which may very well even be true. However, firstly it's impossible to prove, secondly the information released isn't all that groundbreaking anyway, and thirdly - people die every single day, in large numbers, often due to the mismanagement of the governments tasked to protect them.

You have not shown that the revelation of government secrets will cause governments to do their jobs less well. You have not shown that revealing government secrets will cause more death and hardship than is already experienced. You have not shown - or even attempted to show - that putting government activities up for public scrutiny is counter-productive.

You need to do these things in order to support your stance. You don't have to. But it would help people to understand your point of view better.

Of course, you could also just continue to call anyone who disagrees with your position guilty of idiocy. (The "You're too dumb to understand" argument.) I guess that's probably more fun and takes less effort, so off you go. ;-)

Actually, I could turn every single one of the above statements back on you.

1. Does Julian AssAngel have an anti-American agenda to be releasing so much stuff about America?
2. How are the donations he is receiving being audited and what portion does he receive as living expenses?
3. Is he trustworthy? What else do we know about him? What is is his track record? What previous beefs did he have with various people in order to embark on this course?

Will the wikileaks releases cause collateral damage? Will innocent people's lives or the lives of participants in any ongoing conflict be put at risk? Are we willing to take that chance? Are we breaking trust with these people by allowing this information to go public? Are we willing to sacrifice one single innocent human life in the name of convenience and curiosity?

Will the release cause a breakdown or any mistrust in future relations between governments? Will the release make it harder for governments in future to conduct secret and sensitive negotiations without fear of exposure or the negotiation process being scuttled mid-term? Will governments ever again be able to hold the upper hand in any future negotiations by keeping some of their cards to themselves until the negotiations are concluded?

You need to be able to answer these things in order to prove that the wikileaks release is in the public interest and of lasting international benefit rather than just mere curiosity. You don't have to. But it would help people to understand your point of view better.

Of course, you could also just continue to call anyone who disagrees with your position a prick, or a jerk, or childish.
 
Actually, I could turn every single one of the above statements back on you.

You could. However, it would be more informative (although, admittedly, less 'fun') if you explained your opposition to the generally held claim that government secrecy is a bad thing.

Remember that governments are entrusted to manage our environment, using our money, in order to allow us to live our lives. Governments need to be held accountable for their actions, otherwise we will not be sufficiently informed to determine whether or not to kick them out at the next election. By keeping our governments in check and under scrutiny, we encourage them to perform better for the benefit of the entire population, rather than just for those with the most financial clout.

Claiming secrecy is a prerequisite for this is fine, but unfortunately secrecy is also very open to abuse. Are we really in a good position by allowing the winner of a popularity contest (that's basically what an election is!) to decide what to keep secret from us?

This isn't about "convenience and curiosity", as you put it. The "agenda", which you keep bleating on about, is to keep us all informed about our world.

Your move, bru.
 
You could. However, it would be more informative (although, admittedly, less 'fun') if you explained your opposition to the generally held claim that government secrecy is a bad thing.

Remember that governments are entrusted to manage our environment, using our money, in order to allow us to live our lives. Governments need to be held accountable for their actions, otherwise we will not be sufficiently informed to determine whether or not to kick them out at the next election. By keeping our governments in check and under scrutiny, we encourage them to perform better for the benefit of the entire population, rather than just for those with the most financial clout.

Claiming secrecy is a prerequisite for this is fine, but unfortunately secrecy is also very open to abuse. Are we really in a good position by allowing the winner of a popularity contest (that's basically what an election is!) to decide what to keep secret from us?

This isn't about "convenience and curiosity", as you put it. The "agenda", which you keep bleating on about, is to keep us all informed about our world.

Your move, bru.

I honestly have very little problem with what you said, and am mostly in agreement.

The only point of departure is to say that it is impossible for the government to practice full disclosure and total transparency at every turn. What you are asking for, is logistically and practically impossible.

Let's take an example.

We would all love to see the tendering process be a totally transparent process. But a government department (at least an ethical and incorruptible one) actually wants the companies doing the tendering to compete against each other. Otherwise, what is the point of tendering if there is no competition in quality and price. But if this system was totally open to all public scrutiny each company would know exactly which other companies are tendering and exactly what their proposals contain. This would then result in ten companies proposing the same price and the same plan. Not feasible. So the government department keeps the lid on the whole process until it is complete. Only then after the fact, should it be willing to make the other tender applications public for scrutiny after the fact.

Another example, a country wants to form a strategic alliance. It begins negotiations with several countries on a sub-continent. It asks its own diplomats for their opinions on the leaders and strengths of each country. It asks each of those countries what they can bring to the table in terms of an alliance. but once again, the opinions of those diplomats and the proposals of each country, cannot become a matter of public record since it would then scupper the process. If country B finds out that we are also talking to country A at the same time, they might pull out of the process and in fact turn against us out of paranoia. or the leader finds out that the diplomat labeled him as weak and ineffective, but leading a well organised and powerful military. We might be willing to form an alliance with such a country, but not if he finds out what we really think of him personally.

Scenario 3, a country gets some information that a certain widely used drug may in fact have some unwanted side effects. More research is needed, and because of the danger of panic or misinformation, the government decides to complete the research speedily and then announce the findings as soon as possible. Temporary measures are put in place to curtail sales of the drug until the research is in. When the research is completed the findings are made known and adjustments are made to the formula. The new form of the drug is fed into the system seamlessly and without much panic. But if the results of the initial research had been made known, without further confirmation, it might have sparked panic, lawsuits, or for the producing company to go bankrupt. Instead, the process was controlled and effortless.

There are a million other examples and scenarios, but hopefully the person with any common sense will get the gist. It is not always in the public interest to let them know everything at every stage of the game. yes, we are all tax payers, but no, we are not all parliamentarians, ministers, or presidents.
 
OVERSIGHT

There are a million other examples and scenarios, but hopefully the person with any common sense will get the gist.
It is not always in the public interest to let them know everything at every stage of the game.
yes, we are all tax payers, but no, we are not all parliamentarians, ministers, or presidents.

Gary I have not once see you mention anything about OVERSIGHT

A properly functioning democracy sets up a committee of unimpeachable people to check on these things acting on behalf of the public interest.

it is THEIR job to check what goes on "behind-the-curtain"

They should then be able to call for an oversight investigation into stuff that is not right ( Senate Oversight Committee)

Unfortunately even these have become lame dog wag the tail institutions

NOTHING else is left after the normal procedures have FAILED

It is kinda like REVOLUTION -- except a revolution of INFORMATION
 
Gary I have not once see you mention anything about OVERSIGHT

A properly functioning democracy sets up a committee of unimpeachable people to check on these things acting on behalf of the public interest.

it is THEIR job to check what goes on "behind-the-curtain"

They should then be able to call for an oversight investigation into stuff that is not right ( Senate Oversight Committee)

Unfortunately even these have become lame dog wag the tail institutions

NOTHING else is left after the normal procedures have FAILED

It is kinda like REVOLUTION -- except a revolution of INFORMATION

I have no problem with that. But that does not seem to be the same as wikileaks agenda. They hardly seem professional or trustworthy to me.
 
I have no problem with that. But that does not seem to be the same as wikileaks agenda. They hardly seem professional or trustworthy to me.

I see. Would you mind saying what is so dastardly and suspicious about having an 'agenda'?

I read your examples of where secrecy is required with great interest. Your points boil down to the following:

1. We the people aren't clever/trustworthy enough to be entrusted with the truth.
2. The people running the country are always clever/trustworthy enough to be entrusted with our secrets.

We have seen that - for point 2 at least - this is rarely the case. And you also fail to show how secrecy can contribute to better governments. And now your only problem with Wikileaks is that you feel they have an 'agenda' and aren't terribly professional!

So what? :D
 
I see. Would you mind saying what is so dastardly and suspicious about having an 'agenda'?

If their agenda is anything other than to help injured parties, then it negates their independence and impartiality. That much is just common sense though.

I read your examples of where secrecy is required with great interest. Your points boil down to the following:

1. We the people aren't clever/trustworthy enough to be entrusted with the truth.
2. The people running the country are always clever/trustworthy enough to be entrusted with our secrets.

We have seen that - for point 2 at least - this is rarely the case. And you also fail to show how secrecy can contribute to better governments. And now your only problem with Wikileaks is that you feel they have an 'agenda' and aren't terribly professional!

So what? :D

The kind of transparency and openness you are asking for is not possible, feasible, or practical in the real world. I suggest you move to Fairy land.
 
If their agenda is anything other than to help injured parties, then it negates their independence and impartiality. That much is just common sense though.

No, sorry, that wasn't your complaint. Your complaint was that Wikileaks had an agenda. Can you confirm what is wrong with having an agenda?

Because Wikileaks does have one: and their agenda is to make the world a more open and informed place. Now, that is different from "help[ing] injured parties", so according to you their "independance and impartiality" are negated. Unfortunately there is no link between the two.

The kind of transparency and openness you are asking for is not possible, feasible, or practical in the real world. I suggest you move to Fairy land.

Aha - so Julian Assange is contemptible because his organisation is trying to move the world towards an impossible, unfeasible and impractical state?

That would explain why the US Govt is trying so hard to discredit him (and by proxy his organisation). If anyone in the US started believing a "Fairy land" was possible, they might start demanding it!

Gary, you've gone from defending secrecy to supporting transparency in the space of 14 hours. That's pretty good going. It's a shame that you can't openly bring yourself to support transparency, preferring instead to lambast it as 'impossible'. But at least you've understood that it's something worth striving for. :)
 
No, sorry, that wasn't your complaint. Your complaint was that Wikileaks had an agenda. Can you confirm what is wrong with having an agenda?

Nothing, as long as that agenda is to help injured parties. Anything else is a pipe dream. Wikileaks agenda on the other hand seems to be currently fulfilling Julian Assange's personal ambitions.

Because Wikileaks does have one: and their agenda is to make the world a more open and informed place. Now, that is different from "help[ing] injured parties", so according to you their "independance and impartiality" are negated. Unfortunately there is no link between the two.

A "more open and informed place" is a very general statement and nebulous goal. No wonder they are running into so many problems if people can't figure out what their actual real agenda is.

Aha - so Julian Assange is contemptible because his organisation is trying to move the world towards an impossible, unfeasible and impractical state?

Well yes... but mostly because he is using his organisation to attain his own personal goals. it has lost it's reputation for impartiality.

That would explain why the US Govt is trying so hard to discredit him (and by proxy his organisation). If anyone in the US started believing a "Fairy land" was possible, they might start demanding it!

Fairy Land = fictional non-existent world populated by mythical creatures and magic.

Gary, you've gone from defending secrecy to supporting transparency in the space of 14 hours. That's pretty good going. It's a shame that you can't openly bring yourself to support transparency, preferring instead to lambast it as 'impossible'. But at least you've understood that it's something worth striving for. :)

I haven't gone anywhere. You just can't read. I have always been in favour of practical and attainable, realistic transparency.
 
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