Article: World moving towards new monetary system: Zoellick

Yes, but it's also created 300 dollars of debt, and the amount of money in circulation has been nibbled up by the fractional reserves (this is (hint hint) why the multiplier is linked to the reserve percentage) The actual spending power has declined.

Then is wouldn't Fractional reserve banking, it would be ZERO reserve banking.

So basically, you agree that an extra 300 dollars of cash (As well as the contra debt, so it will be paid back...) is created, literally out of nothing. And as for the amount of money in circulation being nibbled up by reserves, $400 = $100 reserves., roughly.

All I tried to point out was that the current system in place allows the creation of money from nothing, commercial banks included. It is not just the Reserve Banks and their printing press and monetary policies.

When this process happens, it is beneficial to the big borrowers at the cost of the little guys...

This is why it must be stopped as it is a transfer of wealth.

Now if we had a hard currency, the value of the currency would change, but it would not be related to changes in the money supply. It would be to changes in the levels of production. The 2 should be distinguished. (Unless of course a gold meteor strikes the planet or some such...)
 
So basically, you agree that an extra 300 dollars of cash (As well as the contra debt, so it will be paid back...) is created, literally out of nothing.

The extra 300 dollars can't be "In Cash" if it keeps on being redeposited.

The money "Created out of Nothing" less the "debt created out of nothing" = 0

And as for the amount of money in circulation being nibbled up by reserves, $400 = $100 reserves., roughly.

$100 @ 20% reserve.

After 50 or so transactions


Deposits in the bank $500
Loans extended -$400
--------
Nett Money $100

Reserves held $100

Money in circulation -$100

The $400 "created" out of nothing is balanced by the $400 Debt "created" out of nothing.

The money in circulation, the money actually available to spend in the economy is minus $100, why? Because in this very unrealistic scenario the entire amount of the real money is being held as reserve.

All I tried to point out was that the current system in place allows the creation of money from nothing, commercial banks included.

Which is balanced by the debt created out of nothing.

If the multiplier is maximized for dramatic effect like you've done, you end up with the entire original amount being held as reserves, as well as all the loans being tied up as deposits. The cash in circulation end up being minus that original amount.

When this process happens, it is beneficial to the big borrowers at the cost of the little guys...

Nonsense! If the multiplier is maximized for dramatic effect as you've done, then those big borrowers are paying more interest on their borrowings than what they are receiving on their deposits.

This is why it must be stopped as it is a transfer of wealth.

No, it is a mechanism whereby idle cash is made available to entrepreneurs to invest in operations.

10 people have $10 of idle money, they deposit this money in the bank to earn a return. The bank then lends $80 to a company to buy stock for resale, the Company pays interest on that $80 until they pay it back.

All that is happened is the bank has facilitated those 10 people lending $8 each to the company.

Now if we had a hard currency, the value of the currency would change, but it would not be related to changes in the money supply. It would be to changes in the levels of production. The 2 should be distinguished. (Unless of course a gold meteor strikes the planet or some such...)

The two are interrelated, the value of any currency is the correlation of currency supply to underlying economic value of an economy. This is an automatically correcting system, too few dollars chasing too many goods leads to deflation. Too many dollars leads to inflation. Disconnect those corrections from the value of the currency, as Robert Mugabe tried to do in Zim. The result was a rampant black market in both currency and commodities and the de facto abandonment of the inflated zim $ by many people in favour of the U$, the UKÂŁ and the SAR.
 
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My big fear about talks like this is a global reserve bank being installed. If this ever happens...Im moving to some isolated island somewhere
 
Inflation Tax, WIki definition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation_tax
"An inflation tax is the economic disadvantage suffered by holders of cash and cash equivalents in one denomination of currency due to the effects of expansionary monetary policy, which acts as a hidden tax that subtracts value from those assets. Many economists hold that the inflation tax affects the lower and middle classes more than the rich, as they hold a larger fraction of their income in cash, they are much less likely to receive the newly created monies before the market has adjusted with inflated prices, and more often have fixed incomes, wages or pensions. Some argue that inflation is a regressive consumption tax. [1]
"

From this website...
http://austrianeconomics.wikia.com/wiki/Inflation

"David Hume, in order to demonstrate the inflationary and non-productive effect of paper money, in effect postulated what Rothbard called the "Angel Gabriel" model, in which the Angel, after hearing pleas for more money, magically doubled each person's stock of money overnight. (In this case, the Angel Gabriel would be the "counterfeiter," albeit for benevolent motives.) While everyone would be happy from their seeming doubling of monetary wealth, society would in no way be better off: there would be no increase in capital or productivity or supply of goods. As people rushed out and spent the new money, the only impact would be an approximate doubling of all prices, and the purchasing power of the money would be cut in half, with no social benefit being conferred. An increase of money can only dilute the effectiveness of each unit of money.

In real life, the very point of counterfeiting is to constitute a process of transmitting new money from one pocket to another. Whether counterfeiting is in the form of making brass or plastic coins that simulate gold, or of printing paper money to look like that of the government, counterfeiting is always a process in which the counterfeiter gets the new money first.

In short, the early receivers of the new money in this market chain of events gain at the expense of those who receive the money toward the end of the chain, and still worse losers are the people (e.g., those on fixed incomes such as annuities, interest, or pensions) who never receive the new money at all. Monetary inflation, then, acts as a hidden "tax" by which the early receivers expropriate (gain at the expense of) the late receivers. As the earliest receiver of the new money is the counterfeiter's gain is the greatest. This tax is particularly insidious because it is hidden, few people understand the processes of money and banking, and because it is all too easy to blame the rising prices, or "price inflation/' caused by the monetary inflation on greedy capitalists, speculators, wild-spending consumers, or whatever social group is the easiest to denigrate. Obviously, too, it is to the interest of the counterfeiters to distract attention from their own role by denouncing any and all other groups and institutions as responsible for the price inflation.[11] "

http://www.drlwilson.com/Articles/INFLATON.htm

http://ezinearticles.com/?Inflation---The-Hidden-Tax&id=4958979

You both acknowledge that increases in the money supply result in inflation (The decrease in purchasing power of each individual monetary unit) and then argue that people who took out no debt, are as wealthy as they were before. If the same amount of money now buys less, how have I not lost out? There are no more goods and services in production. I still have to compete with the lender for the same amount of goods and services, yet now he can outbid me with the newly created money.

A transfer of wealth DOES happen. Person A who took out the loans has MORE money, the dilution of purchasing power doesn't rest on him only, it rests on ALL the holders of the currency.

Thus if Person A gets more money from thin air, then person B loses purchasing power.

How did person A get more money, by simply printing more.

Person A is in fact the state and any large corporations who can take out large loans that increase the money supply and person B is everyone with currency.


Maybe I should put it in simpler terms.

2 people in an economy. Each has a R1000. Now person A, suddenly prints more money for himself.

So now we have R3000 in total, chasing around the same amount of goods and services. Prices rise, this is inflation.

So I had a R1000. It could be lets say 10 Fiat Uno's. No since inflation has taken its course, my R1000 can only buy 6 Uno's as it has lost purchasing power. The guy who has R2000, can buy a lot more.

So the people who get loans, benefit. Who gets the largest loans, particularly from the central bank. The state. Which can then hand out money to corporatations that support the states goals, ones that make armaments for example. (Military Industrialo Complex), in fact ANY corporation that gets funds from the state benefits.

There is no EXTRA wealth unless goods and services increase. I lose purchasing power, others gain. Despite the fact the state also loses purchasing power per unit, the loss in purchasing power is spread over every currency holder, not just the state.
 
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You both acknowledge that increases in the money supply result in inflation

Perhaps you're missing something, I've not only acknowledged, I've explained why.

However to stave off boredom here's an article on deflation which is when the value of money increases, which causes the value of goods, and plant to decrease. This effectively taxes those who don't retain cash holdings. Deflation is normally associated depressions.

(The decrease in purchasing power of each individual monetary unit) and then argue that people who took out no debt, are as wealthy as they were before.

That depends on whether or not you deposited your funds in an interest bearing investment.

If the same amount of money now buys less, how have I not lost out? There are no more goods and services in production. I still have to compete with the lender for the same amount of goods and services, yet now he can outbid me with the newly created money.

Newly "borrowed" money which comes at an economic cost (I assume you meant "Borrower"). The borrower pays a price far in excess of the transaction price.

A transfer of wealth DOES happen. Person A who took out the loans has MORE money, the dilution of purchasing power doesn't rest on him only, it rests on ALL the holders of the currency.

But someone has to lend the borrower the money. Those people are making their money available to borrowers at a price

Thus if Person A gets more money from thin air, then person B loses purchasing power.

How did person A get more money, by simply printing more.

Person A is in fact the state and any large corporations who can take out large loans that increase the money supply and person B is everyone with currency.
Which is about monetary policy, not fractional reserve banking, and the costs (on Joe public) of quantitative easing in a long overdue structural adjustment.
 
NO!

Assume fixed money supply. Goods and services increases. Thus there is more to go around. Thus in real terms the "wealth" of society increases. Purchasing power increases. We have deflation. But there is no transfer of wealth. One guy making more doens't = a transfer of wealth. There has actually been a REAL increase in wealth.

I want you to refute the fact that inflation takes time to take place. I want you to refute the fact there is a timing difference between when the new money is injected into the economy and inflation corrects the value of money.

You cannot.

And even if you put your money into an interest bearing account, the money STILL loses purchasing power per unit. It is a totally seperate transaction. You are just confusing yourself dude.

You need to distinguish between inflation/deflation as a result of increases/decreases in the money supply and increases/decreases in productivity.

ANY increase in the money supply, that results in inflation, transfers wealth from those with currency, to the new borrower of the cash. The new borrower is able to buy REAL things with that money, and currency holders will be able to buy less.


Another way to put it is this.

Where does the NEW money injected into any system get its wealth/value from? It gets it from the old money. People accept the old money has value and can buy things, they see new money and they accept that it can by things as well.

But the real value of each monetary unit is related to what it can buy.

Think of the scales of justice. YOu have 2 scales which must balance out each other. (Money on the one side = goods and services produced.)

Now lets say for simplistic reasons, the one scale has 1 car, which is all the goods and services made, and the other scale has R1000, all the money in existance. And the scales balance out, they are of = VALUE.

Now we double the money supply. In real terms the VALUE of the money on the scale hasn't changed. It can still only buy 1 car. So now the R2000 = the car.

The VALUE of each R1 unit has halved. In real terms, the R1000 we originally had now can only by HALF a car, as the purchasing power it had has been transferred to the new money created, which can now buy the other half of the car. Sop purchasing power is transferred from the original money, to the new money.

Unless everyone gets = proportions of NEW money when it is created (Relative to their cash holdings), then there is a REAL transfer of wealth from some people to others. Those who don't take out loans or who take out less loans will lose out to those who take out more (Assuming the loans result in increaesin the money supply).
 
Zzzzzzzzzzzzz<snore>. Smacking of lips. Knuckling of gummy eyes. Huh! Wassup? Oh, OK. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
 
NO!

Assume fixed money supply. Goods and services increases. Thus there is more to go around. Thus in real terms the "wealth" of society increases. Purchasing power increases. We have deflation. But there is no transfer of wealth. One guy making more doens't = a transfer of wealth. There has actually been a REAL increase in wealth.

NO! Those not holding cash reserves find their trading stock/property is worth less, wealth has been transferred from those holding trading stock to those holding cash.

I want you to refute the fact that inflation takes time to take place. I want you to refute the fact there is a timing difference between when the new money is injected into the economy and inflation corrects the value of money.

You cannot.

huh? what strawmen are you building now?

And even if you put your money into an interest bearing account, the money STILL loses purchasing power per unit. It is a totally seperate transaction. You are just confusing yourself dude.

Which is precisely why interest rates rise in a high inflation environment so that the interest rate exceeds inflation offering real returns

You need to distinguish between inflation/deflation as a result of increases/decreases in the money supply and increases/decreases in productivity.

There's no need (except in cases like Mad Bob), because they're two sides of the balancing act.

ANY increase in the money supply, that results in inflation,
Any increase in productivity results in deflation.
transfers wealth from those with currency, to the new borrower of the cash. The new borrower is able to buy REAL things with that money, and currency holders will be able to buy less.

The borrower has to pay interest on the money which is normally well in excess of inflation, in addition to buying goods he has to service debt. He has to pay considerably more than the cash purchaser for the product.

Now lets say for simplistic reasons, the one scale has 1 car, which is all the goods and services made, and the other scale has R1000, all the money in existance. And the scales balance out, they are of = VALUE.

Now we double the money supply. In real terms the VALUE of the money on the scale hasn't changed. It can still only buy 1 car. So now the R2000 = the car.

Alternatively the manufacturer suddenly finds himself in a position to make two cars. There is however only R1000 in existence with which to buy 2 cars, as a result the cars are worth R500 each. Thats great you say, cheap cars, but what about the 10 people who paid R1000 each last month for their cars, their cars are now only worth R5000, the value of their asset is halved.
The VALUE of each R1 unit has halved. In real terms, the R1000 we originally had now can only by HALF a car, as the purchasing power it had has been transferred to the new money created, which can now buy the other half of the car. Sop purchasing power is transferred from the original money, to the new money.

The value of all the money is diluted, however that dilution is mitigated by increases in the value of the economy.

Unless everyone gets = proportions of NEW money when it is created (Relative to their cash holdings), then there is a REAL transfer of wealth from some people to others.
To people who choose to invest in productive assets.

Those who don't take out loans or who take out less loans will lose out to those who take out more (Assuming the loans result in increaesin the money supply).


Loans resulting from fractional reserve banking do not ultimately increase the money in circulation chasing product. It (as I demonstrated) actually decreases cash in circulation.

If I have R100 lying about doing nothing, and I decide to invest it in the bank, I take R100 out of circulation, My bank then lends out R80. That money then goes back into circulation, the net change to the cash actually available to spend on goods and services is Minus R20 (held as a fractional reserve)
 
I suppose gold is seen as a safe investment in these turbulent times when 'other' investments can easily take a dive lol, there is trust in gold.

Gold is reliable, it does not really corrode over time, it is useful, it has industrial application, it is also used by craftsmen and jewelers, it has cultural value, it is a pretty, useful, beautiful soft metal that takes a big investment to mine in the first place. Someone will always trade your gold for cash or something else, it always has some value. (in a post apocalyptic world - gold will be the currency) (in a world where disasters have ever a more devastating impact and where economic insecurity is rife, gold remains a constant in contrast with modern fantastical financial pie in the sky investments - when the electronic financial system fails - gold will be constant - again - and as always)

Cheers to the gold miners :)

Deepest gold mine in the world: South Africa Johannesburg, Carletonville.
That famous mine is called Tau Tona.

The name literally means “great lion” in the local language which began its operation in 1962.

The TauTona Mine is also called Western Deep No.3 Shaft.
At some 3.9 kilometers (2.4 miles) deep it is currently home to the world's deepest mining operations.

and

Mponeng Mine in South Africa produces 13 and a half tons of gold per year, about 3500 m deep, or the East Rand mine, 3585 m below surface.

Read more: http://trifter.com/africa/south-africa/the-worlds-deepest-gold-mine/#ixzz15HWSoQHG
 
Surely Gold is better than the paper(american dollar)

Why?

Gold in a vault doesn't add anything to an economy?

Plant, machinery, rolling stock add something to the economy.

Why not link the currency to the amount of rolling (rail) stock in a country?

This would expand with the economy, and at least be a productive.

Bit awkward for those countries without decent rail networks, but at least the hoarding would lead to an increase in infrastructure.
 
NO! Those not holding cash reserves find their trading stock/property is worth less, wealth has been transferred from those holding trading stock to those holding cash.

Lol now you are arguing that if u have 1 car, and I make a car, it basically transfers wealth from your car to my car? LOL.

Hahahahah. Pointless arguing with you.
 
Lol now you are arguing that if u have 1 car, and I make a car, it basically transfers wealth from your car to my car? LOL.

Hahahahah. Pointless arguing with you.

I'm amazed that you cannot grasp that deflation transfers wealth to those with cash holdings from those holding stock/property.
 
Alloy, do you honestly think this system is in the best interest of mankind?
 
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