Bandwidth theft

[wiseass]

What ever.., so compare cars prices between the States and over here. I bet you have a good reason for the difference in price, or you just like the idea of having yours taken at gunpoint.
Simply said, I buy a beetle (3GB) and drive the beetle (use 3GB). You buy a 4x4 (30GB) you drive it. Next time I need a 4x4 should I just come fetch yours?
My point is not stealing bandwidth from them but from us. Do you think they will run this service at a loss...? It is like insurance, I pay for the replacement of your stolen stuff. Abuse mentality say come let’s steal wiseasses TV that will teach his insurance company.
I bet they can drop prices if they do not have to charge me and everybody else for your extra 50GB over and above the cap you bought may it be 3GB or 30GB? My point is you are not stealing from them have a look they make money, seems almost if they print the stuff, you are stealing from me.

 

[dot]

I now understand what Koosbeer mend by “Troll”. Wiseass’s comments started quite a discussion here.

Like mentioned earlier, being new to this forum, I may not be indoctrinated to the same level as other forum members (yet), so please excuse me if I do not believe that ADSL prices should drop to R20/month for unlimited usage @ 8Mbps over night as a result from the outrage on this forum.

I’m glad the words “1st world countries” were used since it holds the key to the arguments in this thread. Even though I enjoy my Satellite TV, broadband connection, adequate healthcare, varsity standards and roads with FIXED potholes; I get reminded by the fact that I am not living in a first world country (but rather a developing country) every time I watch the news or read a newspaper.

The point I am trying to make is: see how ADSL prices have actually been reduced lately. This is sort of on par with what is expected of in a “developing” country. It seems that this forum was strategic in driving the prices even lower (and please, do not fallacy the new bandwidth prices expected in Nov as contradicting my statement…..this is just Mr.T’s idea of billing ISPs for what they really are using) I agree, it still needs to go a long way to be on par with other countries (and I am sure while you are reading this somewhere someone is already grasping for the stats comparing Telkom’s prices to some other developing country or even 3rd world country……with GOOGLE one will always be able to find facts backing any argument you are trying to make).

Prices will definitely drop in the future, and I suspect it will start happening soon after correct billing is in place. It will be a sort of chain reaction: People pay for what they get - suddenly Telkom sits with surplus unused bandwidth - some poor person (also just trying to earn a living {almost certainly not working there for his pleasure}) working at Telkom gets disciplined for the huge amount of bandwidth Telkom has to pay for but do not have clients utilizing it – some other poor fellow @T comes up with the idea to drop ISP charges to lure people into buying more bandwidth - Telkom reacts at this “new” business opportunity and use the extra cash (at least some of it, shareholders and directors will definitely stand in line first) to buy more bandwidth – and this whole cycle starts all over again.

Since various other treads on this forum deals with service (or the lack thereof) received from Telkom, let’s exclude that in this tread, and focus on the issue of bandwidth. I asked earlier, and I am asking again: Why do other ISPs charge on par with Telkom? Not all of them get their int traffic from SAIX. There are various illegal ISPs using radio networks to self-provide and using satellite for their international bandwidth, but they still do not offer me a R20/month for unlimited usage @ 8Mbps. Why is Sentech not giving such a service? They may do their own backhaul and international traffic?

Koosbeer, maybe wiseass is not a troll, or maybe we misconstrued the definition of troll. Maybe he also just like to spend time in front of his pc like me, have a longing desire to speak with other people about issues he feels passionate about (and at least when the wife or fiancée walks in the room you do not have to ALT-TAB from your game and pretend you were working, she will actually think you were typing a business related email).

 

[ganymede1]

wiseass - you are a real ****en idiot you think it costs them ANYTHING more to transfer 1gig local? please tell me where this cos is involved? i really want to know.... it doesnt cost them **** more for one or 50 gig of local.

 

[koosbeer]

i apologise then dot. when i started to read the thread its seemed like wiseass was starting trouble. people on this forum are very emotional about the prices they pay and the service they receive for that price. i personnaly felt like he was trolling and stil do. personal opinion. no hard feelings.

 

[doobiwan]

d.o.t.
(D)epartment (o)f (T)rade?
(D)eputy (o)f (T)elkom?



Lets start your post over : "Being new to these forums I actually have no clue of the costs involved even though there are dozens of threads on the issue that prove 20 different ways that Telkom is screwing over everyone in this country not just the ADSL users. Not just a bit, but absolutely milking us."

The reason Sentech/IS/UUNET can't drop there prices, even though they have their own backbones is because the current regulatory situation forces them to sell it to Telkom and buy it back at Telkom rates. It's called state sanctioned monopoly.

dude read the boards there's a wealth of information out there. Read the Hellkom facts and figures.

Hell, if you want to believe that we're a just bunch of Cynical thieves fine, but read the ICASA findings report, they agree with everything being said here.

If you are from the DTi or any likeminded organization I suggest you catch a serious wake up, there's 5000+ disgruntled taxpayers on this board. That's just the vocal ones.

 

[Kalvaer]

...
...

Firstly there is no need to Google anything, Read the ICASA report. In certain aspects we are far behind in Broadband compared to other countries less developed than us, even though our infrustructor is more advanced.

ISP's pricing is on par with Telkom due to the fact that if they made any large profit of this as Telkom are making, nobody would use them as they would be too expensive, again, read the report, and also go read the transcripts of the hearings. Telkom "owns" the rights to the SAT3 cable, in effect Telkom owns ALL broadband in the county. Satelite and radio is not viable for people where fast latency is required, just like shaped ADSL is stuffing us around as well

Pricing is also coming down.. agreed, though not in comparison with other countries, Both 1st world or developing.

Lastly.. Wiseass if your frivolous comments there where directed at me with my comparison about what I Pay in the USA and to go look for a good reason for pricing of Cars, go to the bathroom and pull your head out of your ass and wipe the **** out of your eyes. When you are done go reread my post, then go spend some time instead of being a dumbass and try be a wiseass and do some research of your own. Firstly you will see that I have on numerious occasions agreed as I did above that I do not agree with people using 30 to 144 gigs on there 3 gig accounts. If you do 5 more min worth of checking you can anwser your own question as to why car prices are what they are with out me having to feed your trolling posts.

No matter what people use their accounts for, We are being ripped off by telkom by their pricing, no matter if it is for 3 gig accounts or 30 gig accounts

 

[dot]

Doobiwan, I apologise for my misconceptions and limited background info of this forum. I am willing to learn.

Regarding your statement about Sentech (and others) reselling their international traffic to Telkom and then buying it back: Without any sarcasm or “trolling” intended (please, just the facts). Has this been proven somewhere in this forum and subsequently been used during the ICASA hearings, or is it just a conspiracy theory? I would like to know more about this (on a serious note, again, not just looking for a meaningless discussions).

If your statement is factual correct “The reason Sentech/IS/UUNET can't drop there prices, even though they have their own backbones is because the current regulatory situation forces them to sell it to Telkom and buy it back at Telkom rates. It's called state sanctioned monopoly.”, and our “independent” authority was made aware of this (or actually they are the ones enforcing this), then I’m sorry (my fellow complainant), but ICASA’s ruling carry no weight in my books. How can they turn a blind eye to their own regulations (prohibiting healthy competition) and publicly take on Telkom regarding pricing?

Kalvear, I will make it (the transcripts) my starting point to a better understanding of the “facts”, although SOME of the “fiction” I have read in the ICASA official press release even make me (power user always wanting more for less) a bit uncomfortable standing in their corner. How could a country’s Communication Authority think for one moment that the main reason for charging ADSL line rental is due to the price of the DSLAM, ignoring all associated operating expenses for backhauling my data from my exchange to wherever my ISP might reside?

PS! dot = deprived of Telecommunication

 

[dotsupport]

dot, I support your nick, not all your views, although it is pleasant to see that someone tries to think about the business behind the adsl and is not just stampeeding through the streets DEMANDING a better life. I am not as fortunate as u guys on adsl, I chose gprs to be my veryveryvery slow but always on connection. My main reason: I only pay for the little bit I use.

 

[Kalvaer]

Kalvear, I will make it (the transcripts) my starting point to a better understanding of the “facts”, although SOME of the “fiction” I have read in the ICASA official press release even make me (power user always wanting more for less) a bit uncomfortable standing in their corner. How could a country’s Communication Authority think for one moment that the main reason for charging ADSL line rental is due to the price of the DSLAM, ignoring all associated operating expenses for backhauling my data from my exchange to wherever my ISP might reside?

Hopefully somebody can give the exact specs or what not, Or you can find it in the posts here on these forums, though If I remember right, It was telkom mentioned the fact that the ADSL line rental is there to recover their costs for the DSLAM and maintenance (was more than likely Mr White again) It was then that everyone did research into this, Now the values they mentioned where close to R100 000 per User or something stupid, it can quickly be searched through google that the current cost of these ports is about $30-$60 per port.

Now we are charged R404 for installation. and then R477 per month for line rental. Does it not sound funny to you that the cost per port of $60 is about R420. So on installation you pay for your port (I'm happy with that) Now everyone month after that.. You pay R477 for maintanence.. Are Telkom giving me a NEW DSLAM port every single month.. I dont think so. Is maintenance on these ports so expensive (search Marconi and see how they brag about their DSLAM's being basically maintenance free)

Further more you asked if the rental is for the costs "associated operating expenses for backhauling my data from my exchange to wherever my ISP might reside".
DSL was developed to take advantage of a currently available infrustructure. Replacing current POTS systems to use faster systems like Fibre would cost billions (even though Mr White says Telkom has spent billions) So DSL was developed to use the existing cables at a low cost to supply High speed broadband. The costs involved with ADSL should not be more than the R70 odd Rand we pay for our monthly telephone line, as you are in fact still maintaining the EXACT SAME LINE! Now I do understand that with the additional DSLAM hardware there is more that needs to be done and more staff required (yet telkom keep on retrenching people anyway) But at the same time by installing my DSLAM port I now do not have a normal phone line port as the DSLAM port controls this, so the staff required should be the same.

But at a cost of R477... I dont think so. I would gladly pay double my normal telephone rental to R140 a month for my ADSL connection INCLUDING my phone line.

That I believe is why ICASA can take on telkom, because they are protecting mine and YOUR interests from a company that us milking us dry and laughing all the way to the bank with 6.6 Billion in their pockets each year

 

[Turtle]

Do you think they will run this service at a loss...?

wiseass, you can argue till you're blue in the face, but you still won't be able to explain why going over 3GB (while paying over R600/month) is "abuse" here but overseas 30GB is considered quite standard for under R250/month (and in the UK this will become 75GB standard usage limit by next year!!). There is no "philosophical argument" that magically only applies to South Africa and nowhere else - we should expect nothing less than being at least "more or less in line with" international standards. As ganymede1 pointed out, the money comes from economies of scale, and it's supposed to be that way. Telkom could easily sign up half a million ADSL users in SA if the price were similar to overseas prices. This is just the way the world works. If you follow your logic to it's inevitable conclusion, you'll see that you are basically advocating that each user should pay the full theoretical price of delivery of a single unit as if there were no economies of scale at all (God help us if you ever become Minister of Trade and Industry).

Your argument can easily be shown to be total nonsense by looking at many other sectors too ... for example, in (shared) Web hosting, charging a flat rate to a large group of users with Zipfian usage distribution pattern (so that many 'light' users subsidise a tiny percentage of 'heavy' users) is the standard business model, and the only one that works - duh.

 

[paarlberg]

..... Telkom "owns" the rights to the SAT3 cable, in effect Telkom owns ALL broadband in the county. ....

Wasn't Telkom still state owned when the SAT3 was paid for? If so, the gov't actually owns it and gave Telkom the rights.. Therefore, your tax money paid for it and not Telkom's high prices..

I will hide under my rock until the dust clears on this one..

 

[mando]

This is such an excellent anology!

should the guy who LEAVES his TV on 24-7 pay per minute of viewing? should his TV license be based on how much of the service he uses...? 50 bucks extra if you want to watch the news? and 1 buck more every time you do... because if anything I would much rather compare TV to DSL than swimming pools or banks.

People accept per gig billing because it sounds so reasonable. "You're using it more so you should pay more. " You're using it more, but you not using it up more! The cables dont get worn out or anything! They are using a pricing model from a different industry (wireless) because they can! They are a monopoly! The costs to the operator are the same wether you download to a pathetic one user 3gig cap or a more reasonable multi user 30gig cap. Shaping is not needed when you have a reasonable cap in place already to restrict usage!

It sounds reasonable to charge more per gig but its a con because the costs to Telkom stay the same! Would it be reasonable to pay more if you leave your TV on all day?

 

[Obelix]

Using a tv is a cr@ppy example. You ( and everyone else ) are still receiving the signal even if your tv is off, and that is what the cost is based on. Your isp/telkom still pays per megabyte of data sent/received from their international partners.

I would welcome per GB billing. Some months i use less than 2GB and some months i hit 25GB. I'd like to pay for just that bit that im using and no more. If i choose to use 30GB, then by all means charge me for it, but if for one month i only use 1GB, then that is all that i want to pay for ( not the other 29 unused GB as well )

I dont run p2p programs ( i use the proper mirroring tools - and they also get hit by the shaper, but theyre more inteligent and dont quite suffer the way p2p programs do )

 

[mando]

Ok, I didnt know that Telkom got billed per gig transfer for the submarine cables. Add the per gig charge for the copper cables to our houses, and the per gig charge for the DSLAM and other hardware and it all easily adds up to R60/gig. What are the international partners charging per gig anyway?

I always thought that it was all pretty much fixed costs for the hardware infrastructure, and that the copper cables were already existing and running to my house - regardless wether I was using it or not.

But of course my ISP gets charged per gig by telkom, therefore its justified that I must pay per gig and therefore its justified that telkom charges per gig. Its logical.

 

[Turtle]

Obelix, maybe you should wait and see what Telkom plans to charge for 1GB before jumping to conclusions - it will probably be expensive. Let's look at this logically for a moment: would Telkom be implementing this if it is going to save users money, on the whole? I think I'll die laughing.

International bandwidth may be relatively expensive, but don't be fooled, it's not the reason our ADSL is so expensive here. The reason that Telkom deliberately overprices ADSL by a large factor here is twofold: (a) greed and (b) ADSL threatens two important markets of theirs at once: leased lines or ISDN (for businesses) and telephone "call charges" (VOIP at a flat rate). The attempt to push a pay-per-use model is an attempt to have ADSL worsened to the point where it's a far worse deal than it is now but rather is more in line with those two other markets, and the price they will charge per GB will be aimed at making ADSL more "competitive" [sic] i.e. more "in line with" with those two markets. In other words, they want to eventually earn a similar amount of revenue as they would be earning now from leased lines / call charges if you used ADSL / VoIP.

Telkom's PR has tricked you with their claim that charging per GP will "allow" them to charge more fair prices. This is BS - they could charge fair prices today if they actually wanted to. You think they don't have the revenue to absorb lower margins on ADSL until economies of scale truly kick in?

In any case, we should be demanding nothing less than the same level and price of service that is available standard overseas. That means around a 30GB usage limit. (By next year, in the UK users will get a 75GB usage cap standard!) Let's move forwards, not backwards.

Ok, I didnt know that Telkom got billed per gig transfer for the submarine cables

mando, AFAIK Telkom pays a per-usage fee for their 'upstream provider' to which they link in e.g. UK. But this is actually irrelevant to the issue, it's a false premise Telkom is using to push their greedy business model.

 

[ettubrute]

Ok, I didnt know that Telkom got billed per gig transfer for the submarine cables.

I thought Telkom "owned" it, so are they then charging themselves for using it? Sounds unlikely...

Anyway, if there is some other owner of the cable, what does Telkom then pay per Meg/Gig? Looking at the "normal" trend of the srewing business policy used in SA, it will be a very small price, and then marked-up 1000%!

 

[PeekNPoke]

One problem I have with ADSL bundled costs is that I reach the end of the month and find that I’ve not even remotely used all the gig’s I pay for. I then go into a frantic download spree and try and download anything I can find just to use the bandwidth I paid for. If it was possible to transfer the unused bandwidth to the next month, then no problem.

I think the one question we should all ask ourselves is: if you had an uncapped line, how much bandwidth would you really use per month? Sure the first month you might go crazy and download the “internet”, but after you’ve done that, then what? Downloading is becoming old, streaming should be the future. With enough bandwidth you should not need to download movies and music but rather listen and watch them in real-time.

I’d rather pay more for more speed than more data….

 

[eye_suc]

I’d rather pay more for more speed than more data….

well, to stream decent quality video and audio you will need WAY more bandwidth than Telkom is offering you. Even if you have more speed you cannot really watch much on 3GB.

At SA in General:
This however is only my opinion and Telkom is obviously right, while the rest of the world is doing everything horribly wrong, with people abusing their internet and bringing the whole USA down to a crawl because we all know that internet is a turn based service (i will download my stuff, then you can have a turn). Right?

 

[Clipse]

Telkom pay for their portion of the sat3 line at a flat yearly rate, its similar as to buying 100mbit unlimited usage at hosting companies overseas, which cost between $400-$700 a month over there. Now Telkom pays roughly $6million a year for their portion of the sat3 line which is roughly 40gigabit/sec last I checked.

Now you can work out how much they ripping everyone off, since they do not pay per meg or per gig.

Their portion of the sat3 can do the following in the given $6million yearly fee.

400megabyte/sec x 60sec = 24000megabytes / minute x 60 = 1440000 megabytes / hour x 24 hours = 34560000 megabytes / day (at full usage, if they do have access to 40gigabit/sec)

Per year they would be able to do 12614400000 meg for $6million, that works out to less than nothing per meg or even more less than nothing nothing per gig.

edit: Just to let everyone know, with above example, Telkom can manage 12614400 GIG / year on their portion of just the sat3 line, now lets say all of those gigs were sold at R100 per gig (which in reality is ALOT more expensive, if you were to work out diginet costs etc etc.) that would equate to roughly 12614400 x R100 = R1261440000

Lovely number hey? ;-) Telkom is making actually more than that, this is infact a good minimum estimation :_)

draw your own conclusion of how much they need to sell to make up their yearly cost. Its rather pathetic. They start making profit within a few minutes of paying off their yearly fee.

 

[PeekNPoke]

well, to stream decent quality video and audio you will need WAY more bandwidth than Telkom is offering you. Even if you have more speed you cannot really watch much on 3GB.

Just to clarify. The amount of data you use should be irrelevant, the speed you get it at should be. The whole problem at the moment is that people are so frustrated and angry that they have to pay for data that they in theory "abuse" the line because they are paying for it. Take this away and you'll probably find that people would not use half as much. Rather charge people at the speed they get data than the amount they get.

In 'n nutshell I'd go with a slow line uncapped and upgrade to a faster one if required.