Biomolecular machines

kewl - I thought you answered my question. But was unsure.


The OP wouldn't mind copy and paste so much. It is his forte. He just dislikes probing questions and counter arguments and any criticisms. Don't do those, then he gets a little antsy and want to dictate what and where and when and how you post.

For future reference :)
 
Actually, a little structure in debate is all that is needed. Provide constructive input and you will receive constructive feed back. Back to the topic at hand:

Biomolecular Machines

Butc8 touched on the subject of protein folding.
Few videos to give a little insight into the process.
Partial part and dynamics of the system.
Nice video of how it operates
And a little more information about the protein folding machinery:
Setting the chaperonin timer: A two-stroke, two-speed, protein machine
For efficiency of enzymes and how they control and direct chemical reaction:
Efficiency of enzymes
From here, it is clear that that proteins don't just fold on their own, but once they are folded into place by other proteins, they can participate in self-organizing events, like the self-assembly of other biomolecular machines.
Awesome video of the self-assembling flagellar nanomachine.

All, highly effeicient. Moving to a macromolecular scale, one can see how all these processes come together to produce highly efficient organisms. Like bacteria:

Bacteria Are Models Of Efficiency
ScienceDaily (Feb. 4, 2009) — The bacterium Escherichia coli, one of the best-studied single-celled organisms around, is a master of industrial efficiency. This bacterium can be thought of as a factory with just one product: itself. It exists to make copies of itself, and its business plan is to make them at the lowest possible cost, with the greatest possible efficiency.
The equations look at two components of the protein production process: ribosomes – the machinery in which proteins are produced – and RNA polymerase – an enzyme that copies the genetic code for protein production onto strands of messenger RNA for further translation into proteins. RNA polymerase is thus a sort of work ‘supervisor’ that keeps protein production running smoothly, checks the specs and sets the pace.

The first equation assesses the production rate of the ribosomes themselves; the second the protein output of the ribosomes; the third the production of RNA polymerase. The last two equations deal with how the cell assigns the available ribosomes and polymerases to the various tasks of creating other proteins, more ribosomes or more polymerases.

The theoretical model was tested in real bacteria. Do bacteria ‘weigh’ the costs of constructing and maintaining their protein production machinery against the gains to be had from being able to produce more proteins in less time? What happens when a critical piece of equipment is in short supply, say a main ribosome protein? Tlusty and Tadmor found that their model was able to accurately predict how an E. coli would change its production strategy to maximize efficiency following disruptions in the work flow caused by experimental changes to genes with important cellular functions.

What’s the optimum? The model predicts that a bacterium, for instance, should have seven genes for ribosome production. It turns out that that’s exactly the number an average E. coli cell has. Bacteria having five or nine get a much lower efficiency rating. Evolution, in other words, is a master efficiency expert for living factories, meeting any challenges that arise as production conditions change.
So evolution is a master of efficiency... Interesting. Since natural selection DOES NOTHING. Optimization is carried out by biomolecular machines, utilizing random variation and selection. Oh, and they utilize thermal fluctuations.
 
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Biochemists Discover New Biological Mechanism: Transport Factor Divides Protein Synthesis Between Mother And Daughter Cells

ScienceDaily (Feb. 10, 2009) — Researchers from the University of Groningen, headed by Dr Liesbeth Veenhoff and Prof. Bert Poolman, have discovered a new biological mechanism, which ensures that new proteins are created exactly where they are needed in a cell. The research was conducted using the yeast Saccharomyces cerevisiae (baker’s yeast). The mechanism takes effect when cells divide, a process that is asymmetrical in yeast.

Two mechanisms known

Proteins can only function properly in the cell if they are in the right location. Previously, two mechanisms for getting proteins to a specific place in the cell were known. In the first, discovered by Nobel Prize winner Günther Blobel, the protein molecules are first synthesized by ribosomes (the molecular machinery for protein synthesis in the cell), which decode the messenger RNA. An address label present on the protein, the equivalent of a zip code, is then recognized by a transport system, which takes the protein to the correct place. In the second known mechanism, the information for the right cellular localization is already read from the particular messenger RNA (mRNA) and the mRNA is transported to the right cellular location, where the proteins are synthesized by ribosomes already present. Characteristic of the newly discovered mechanism is that it does not work for one specific type of protein or mRNA but for a whole set of mRNAs.
Awesome. Highly efficient systems serving to preserve the functionality of single cells.

Surplus of newly synthesized proteins in daughter cell

The localization of karyopherin-104 in the newly forming cell ensures that relatively more mRNA is translated into proteins there. This means that a surplus of proteins can be produced in the daughter cell, thus ensuring that it initially grows faster than the mother cell. The karyopherin-104 is predominantly in the tip of the growing daughter cell at the start of the growing phase and later in the area where the mother and daughter cells touch. Follow-up research should reveal whether the newly discovered mechanism is fundamental to the rejuvenation of daughter cells.

An intricate mechanism to ensure future cells have the capability of adapting. Nothing myopic about...
 
How Cells Handle Broken Chromosomes
ScienceDaily (Feb. 12, 2009) — Scientists from the Max Planck Institute of Biochemistry discovered a novel cellular response towards persistent DNA damage: After being recognized and initially processed by the cellular machinery, the broken chromosome is extensively scanned for homology and the break itself is later tethered to the nuclear envelope.
Thus the researchers uncovered a surprising feature of how DNA strand breaks can be handled. Their unexpected findings have important implications for the understanding of DNA repair mechanisms.

The central molecule for life is DNA, which constitutes the genetic blueprint of our organism. However, this precious molecule is constantly threatened by miscellaneous damage sources. DNA damage is a cause of cancer development, degenerative diseases and aging. The most dangerous and lethal type of DNA-damage is the DNA double strand break (DSB). A single DSB is enough to kill a cell or cause chromosomal aberrations leading to cancer. Therefore, cells have evolved elaborate DNA repair systems that are fundamental for human health.
Words like "evolve... ...for" betrays the author's stealth teleology. Materialists should handcuff this "non-scientist" for smuggling in teleological features into evolutionary thought :D.

DSBs can be repaired by error-prone non-homologous end joining, a pathway in which the DSB ends are simply fused together again. The alternative repair pathway, called homologous recombination, is mostly error-free and needs homologous DNA sequences to guide repair. A vast amount of research, by many scientists around the world, has provided us with a detailed picture of how the DNA damage is recognized and finally repaired. However, so far little was known, how homologous sequences are found and how cells react when DNA breaks persist.

Now, scientists around Stefan Jentsch, head of the Department of Molecular Cell Biology, were able to shed light on these questions, as they report in the upcoming issue of Molecular Cell.

The scientists modified a yeast strain in which a DSB can be induced and followed over time. Moreover, they managed to label the DNA-break for microscopic studies. Using high-resolution digital imaging, they observed after a few hours a directed movement of the break to the nuclear envelope. Jentsch and colleagues speculate that this tethering to the nuclear envelope could be a safety measure of cells to prevent erroneous and unwanted recombination events, which can have catastrophic consequences like cancer development or cell death.

Marian Kalocsay and Natalie Hiller, who conducted the study as part of their PhD-thesis research, then set out to unravel the molecular details of how a persistent DSB is recognized, processed and – at last - relocated to the nuclear envelope.

Using a high resolution method – the so called chip-on-chip technique - which allowed to investigate repair factor recruitment to DNA in unprecedented details, the researchers made a surprising observation: In an apparent attempt to find homology and repair the DSB, a protein called Rad51 (or “recombinase”) begins within one hour to accumulate and to spread bi-directionally from the break, covering after a short time the entire chromosome – a much larger area than supposed before. “Intriguingly, Rad51 spreading only occurs on the chromosome where the break resides and does not “jump” to other chromosomes”, says Kalocsay. As to the researchers knowledge, this is the first in vivo description of ongoing chromosome-wide homology search, which is the most mysterious event in DSB repair. Therefore, this finding has important implications for the understanding of DNA repair by homologous recombination.

Furthermore, Kalocsay and Hiller identified a novel important player in the DNA-damage response that is essential for Rad51 activation as well as for the relocation of DSBs to the nuclear envelope: the histone variant H2A.Z. In early stages of DNA repair it is incorporated into DNA near the DSBs and is essential there for the initiation of the following repair mechanisms. Later on, the attachment of the small modifying protein SUMO to H2A.Z plays an important role in the tethering of the break to the nuclear envelope. “Moreover, cells lacking H2A.Z are severely sensitive to DSBs, thus revealing H2A.Z as an important and novel factor in DSB-repair”, explains Hiller.
Can't wait for the molecular simulation for this mechanism.


Viruses often get a bad wrap. No one knows the origins of viruses though.
Exogenous accidents or endogenous retroviruses gone wild. The second one sounds more plausible.
Research On Viral Origins Suggests New Definition Of Virus May Be Needed
ScienceDaily (Feb. 16, 2009) — The strange interaction of a parasitic wasp, the caterpillar in which it lays its eggs and a virus that helps it overcome the caterpillar’s immune defenses has some scientists rethinking the definition of a virus.

In an essay in the journal Science, Donald Stoltz, a professor of microbiology and immunology at Dalhousie University, in Halifax, Nova Scotia, and James Whitfield, a professor of entomology at the University of Illinois, report that a new study also appearing in Science shows how the diverse ways in which viruses operate within and among the organisms they encounter may not be fully appreciated.
Indeed. Consider the following functions of endogenous retroviruses and related elements.
1) Independent envelope genes from unrelated ERV families regulate trophoblast differentiation and syncytia formation during synepitheliochorial placentation. Are there examples of Eutheria that are capable of reproduction without ERVs?
Humans (primates): HERV-W and HERV-FRD
Mice (Rodentia): Syncytin-A and -B
Sheep (Artiodactyla): enJSRV

2) Retroelement formatting of the genome [1].
System architectures formatting by retroelements and other repeat elements possibly have an effect on morphological, physiological and reproductive function.

3) LTRs play a fundamental role in gene expression
Independently acquired LTRs have assumed regulatory roles for orthologous genes [2].
An LTR is the dominant promoter in the colon, indicating that this ancient retroviral element has a major impact on gene expression [3].
LTR class I endogenous retrovirus (ERV) retroelements impact considerably on the transcriptional network of human tumor suppressor protein p53 (guardian of the genome) [4].

4) Role in autoimmunity [5].
Disease associations have been established, however there is as yet no proven definite causative association between HERVs and disease.
a) Human endogenous retroviruses can encode superantigenic activity
b) Transcriptional activation. HERVs may act as insertional mutagens or cis-regulatory elements causing activation, inhibition, or alternative splicing of cellular genes involved in immune function.
c) Molecular mimicry. Production of neo-antigens by modification of cellular components.
d) Epitope spreading.
e) Activation of innate immunity through pattern recognition receptors.

[1] von Sternberg R, Shapiro JA. How repeated retroelements format genome function. Cytogenet Genome Res. 2005;110(1-4):108-116.

[2] Romanish MT, Lock WM, van de Lagemaat LN, Dunn CA, et al. Repeated recruitment of LTR retrotransposons as promoters by the anti-apoptotic locus NAIP during mammalian evolution. PLoS Genet. 2007 Jan 12;3(1):e10.

[3] Dunn CA, Medstrand P, Mager DL. An endogenous retroviral long terminal repeat is the dominant promoter for human beta1,3-galactosyltransferase 5 in the colon. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2003 Oct 28;100(22):12841-12846.

[4] Wang T, Zeng J, Lowe CB, Sellers RG, Salama SR, Yang M, et al. Species-specific endogenous retroviruses shape the transcriptional network of the human tumor suppressor protein p53. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2007 Nov 20;104(47):18613-18618.

[5] Colmegna I, Garry RF. Abstract Role of endogenous retroviruses in autoimmune diseases. Infect Dis Clin North Am. 2006 Dec;20(4):913-929.


This study just contributes to more fascinating functions of these retroviral elements.
The study, from a team of researchers led by the Université François Rabelais, in Tours, France, found that the genes that encode a virus that helps wasps successfully parasitize caterpillars are actually integrated into the wasps’ own chromosomes. These genes, which they show to be related to those from another known group of viruses, are an indivisible part of the wasp’s genetic heritage; they are passed down from one generation to another of parasitoid wasps.

“Many virology texts won’t even mention polydnaviruses,” Whitfield said. “The issue we bring up is: Do we want to call these viruses? And if not, why not? Because they certainly started out as viruses. And if so, then we have to change the definition of viruses to somehow specify what it is that a virus has to contain, and what it has to do, to be considered a virus.”

ERV research at present is rich with speculations and it is a fertile ground for new and exciting ideas regarding their importance and functionality. (previously thought to randomly integrated junk)
 
Words like "evolve... ...for" betrays the author's stealth teleology.
No it merely illustrates how the human mind works, how we think about things and your riding it into the ground is funny to behold indeed. crash and burn baby, crash and burn.

This is also know as quote mining. Taking someones words out of context or using someone who does not share one's point of view's words as "evidence' for ones own position. It is dishonest at best. Thereafter it goes straight down to hell and beyond.
 
Words like "evolve... ...for" betrays the author's stealth teleology. Materialists should handcuff this "non-scientist" for smuggling in teleological features into evolutionary thought :D.

"cells have evolved elaborate DNA repair systems that are fundamental for human health"

LOL! You cannot even read English sentences properly! The prepositional phrase "for human health" modifies the adjective "fundamental" and does not relate to the verb "evolved"!

What IS your home tongue? Urdu?

What a FAIL LOL!
:D:D

PS - a "bad rap" not a "bad wrap" LOL!
 
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"cells have evolved elaborate DNA repair systems that are fundamental for human health"

LOL! You cannot even read English sentences properly! The prepositional phrase "for human health" modifies the adjective "fundamental" and does not relate to the verb "evolved"!
So, cells have evolved elaborate DNA repair systems and they are fundamental for human health. Happened just so didn't it?
But you are right. Bad example of adaptationism.

What IS your home tongue? Urdu?

What a FAIL LOL!
:D:D

PS - a "bad rap" not a "bad wrap" LOL!
Thanks for "rap" fix. Didn't know the entire history of the term. Learn something new everyday I guess.
Urdu? Nope, perhaps it is the mother tongue of this potter? I think right there is a gold mine of spelling and grammar mistakes for you to correct. Hey, at least you are being constructive.
 
Origin of Life On Earth: Scientists Unlock Mystery Of Molecular Machine
Well, there you have it. Self-assembly. If you replay the tape of life from the beginning, it should self-assemble according to the rules of the universe.

ScienceDaily (Feb. 19, 2009) — A major mystery about the origins of life has been resolved. According to a study published in the journal Nature, two Université de Montréal scientists have proposed a new theory for how a universal molecular machine, the ribosome, managed to self-assemble as a critical step in the genesis of all life on Earth.

"While the ribosome is a complex structure it features a clear hierarchy that emerged based on basic chemical principles," says Sergey Steinberg, a Université de Montréal biochemistry professor who made his discovery with student Konstantin Bokov. "In the absence of such explanations, some people could imagine unseen forces at work when such complex structures emerge in nature."
Emergence :D Something from something ;).

What is a ribosome?

The ribosome is an enormous molecule responsible for translating the messages carried in the genetic code of all organisms into the workhorse molecules of the cell – proteins – that carry out all functions, including replicating the genome itself. As the world celebrates the bicentennial anniversary of the Father of Evolution, Charles Darwin, Prof. Steinberg's theory brings the scientific community even deeper into the study of the origins of life.

By examining the molecular self-organizing processes that preceded the living cell, the point where time begins for biologists, Prof. Steinberg goes further than Darwin and the many evolutionary biologists who followed could have imagined

By the standards of biological molecules, ribosomes are immense. Though visible only through lenses of the most powerful microscopes, comparing most other biological molecules to this behemoth is like comparing a tricycle to a jumbo jet. Having spent years gazing at the detailed structure of the ribosome, Prof. Steinberg pondered how such an immense and complex structure could have assembled itself from smaller building blocks that existed on the early Earth.
To see how complex structures self-organize (no luck just good control and self-organizing principles), watch the self-organization of microtubules (at around 3:24).

From the simple to the complex

The key breakthrough came when he realized that the ribosome is organized by a set of simple structural rules and that it had to be assembled from basic building blocks in a very specific order; otherwise it would have fallen apart. He then showed with mathematical rigor that the construction of the ribosome likely followed an ordered series of steps to form the structure found in the first living cell. To this day, that structure exists almost unchanged in our own cells.

Chemists have been able to observe many examples of self-organizing behavior with simple molecules, yet explaining the complex self-assembly of biomolecules had not been so obvious.

"Thanks to the research of Sergey Steinberg and Konstantin Bokov, scientists now have a glimpse of one key event that emerged spontaneously out of the primordial chemical soup of the early Earth," explains Stephen Michnick, a Université de Montréal biochemistry professor and Canada Research Chair in Integrative Genomics. "Perhaps in the near future we may look forward to more discoveries that will take us beyond the world of Darwin into an understanding of the basic chemical principles that drove the emergence of life on our planet and perhaps beyond."
So, it self-assembles, and once it did, all of life made use of it. What's all the fuss about self-organization and self-assembly?

Interesting article:
The uniqueness of biological self-organization: challenging the Darwinian paradigm
Here we discuss the challenge posed by self-organization to the Darwinian conception of evolution. As we point out, natural selection can only be the major creative agency in evolution if all or most of the adaptive complexity manifest in living organisms is built up over many generations by the cumulative selection of naturally occurring small, random mutations or variants, i.e., additive, incremental steps over an extended period of time. Biological self-organization—witnessed classically in the folding of a protein, or in the formation of the cell membrane—is a fundamentally different means of generating complexity. We agree that self-organizing systems may be fine-tuned by selection and that self-organization may be therefore considered a complementary mechanism to natural selection as a causal agency in the evolution of life. But we argue that if self-organization proves to be a common mechanism for the generation of adaptive order from the molecular to the organismic level, then this will greatly undermine the Darwinian claim that natural selection is the major creative agency in evolution. We also point out that although complex self-organizing systems are easy to create in the electronic realm of cellular automata, to date translating in silico simulations into real material structures that self-organize into complex forms from local interactions between their constituents has not proved easy. This suggests that self-organizing systems analogous to those utilized by biological systems are at least rare and may indeed represent, as pre-Darwinists believed, a unique ascending hierarchy of natural forms. Such a unique adaptive hierarchy would pose another major challenge to the current Darwinian view of evolution, as it would mean the basic forms of life are necessary features of the order of nature and that the major pathways of evolution are determined by physical law, or more specifically by the self-organizing properties of biomatter, rather than natural selection.
Necessary features, mmmm :).
From the article:
Despite the increased awareness and acknowledgement of the biological significance of self-organization by authors in so many different fields, many evolutionary biologists appear to down play its implications and role in evolution. Indeed several recent publications by convinced Darwinists, including Richard Dawkins (1976, 1986, 1996, 2004), Mark Ridley (1997) Kenneth Miller (1999) and Ernst Mayr (2001) contains no reference to the mechanism at all. Even Gould (2002: 1208–1214) devotes only a few pages to the phenomenon in his comprehensive study of evolution— The Structure of Evolutionary Theory—while discussing the views of Brian Goodwin and Stuart Kauffman. However, a number of evolutionary biologists have begun to explore a reconciliation between self-organization and neo-Darwinism. These authors generally concede that self-organization and natural selection are two different mechanisms for generating biological complexity—self-organization providing adaptive order ‘‘for free,’’ natural selection generating ‘‘hard earned’’ adaptive order which is decidedly ‘‘not for free’’—yet see the two mechanisms as essentially complementary (Weber and Depew 1996; Kauffman 1993: 409; Camazine et al. 2001: ch. 3; Ruse 2003: ch. 9; Maynard Smith and Szathmary 1999: 115–116; Conway Morris 2003: 204–205).
"Hard earned" adaptive order? Order as an end of a blind, goalless process? You have to be used to a certain form of cognitive dissonance to believe order can be the result of goalless, blind processes.

Although we agree that self-organization and cumulative selection may operate cooperatively in adaptive evolution, we argue that where complex adaptive order is generated by self-organization (we discuss below many cases of this that are now well characterized), this does pose a challenge to the standard Darwinian paradigm, and particularly to the core claim of classic Darwinism (as defined by Darwin 1872; Dawkins 1986; Dennett 1995; Gould 2002: ch. 2; Ruse 2003) that gradual cumulative selection is the major or sole creative agent responsible for the evolution of organic form and biological complexity—that most biological complexity is hard earned.
Natural selection is NOT a creative agent, it does nothing. The best it can do is preserve functionality.
We argue that natural selection can be responsible for the preservation of self-organized adaptive complexity once it has arisen, that it may assist its spread though a population and it may fine tune it in various adaptive directions or canalize developmental processes by the replacement or enhancement of initially self-organized systems by hard wired genetic circuits as Stuart Newman has argued (Newman 1993, 1994), but it cannot be the creator of that complexity in the first place.
Random variation can't create much, natural selection does nothing. The inevitable force of self-organization seems like a likely source of adaptive complexity. So replay that tape of life, and vuala, you should get similar results.

Consequently, despite the complementary nature of the relationship, the greater the role of self organization in the generation of life’s adaptive order, the less the creative role of cumulative selection and the less the overall evolutionary process can be strictly termed ‘‘Darwinian.’’

So the emergence of biomolecular machines seemed inevitable, multicellularity seemed inevitable, and body plans seemed inevitable.... Now what about that pesky and superbly optimal genetic code?
 
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Self-assembly. If you replay the tape of life from the beginning, it should self-assemble according to the rules of the universe.


Very interesting. It does rather blow most of the subsequent part of your post and your speculations about purpose out of the water though. Ain't chemistry wonderful! As I have tried to explain to you before, the same atoms and molecules under the same conditions react in the same way. None of this intentionality stuff - imagine if the petrol-and-air mix decided to make porridge in your car's number 2 cylinder when sparked instead of exploding LOL!

"While the ribosome is a complex structure it features a clear hierarchy that emerged based on basic chemical principles," says Sergey Steinberg, a Université de Montréal biochemistry professor who made his discovery with student Konstantin Bokov. "In the absence of such explanations, some people could imagine unseen forces at work when such complex structures emerge in nature."

Ooops - that last bit would be YOU, Telephrone LOL! No "unseen forces" here it seems - shame, that blows away a LOT of your posts!

"Thanks to the research of Sergey Steinberg and Konstantin Bokov, scientists now have a glimpse of one key event that emerged spontaneously out of the primordial chemical soup of the early Earth," explains Stephen Michnick, a Université de Montréal biochemistry professor...

Gotta love that soup!
:)

Personally I think the universe is FULL of life and that life emerges fairly easily. But that is speculation, of course. Let these scientists discover more basic chemistry at the heart of the origins of life, and maybe we'll be able to make lekker new monsters in our own kitchens LOL!
:)
 
Personally I think the universe is FULL of life and that life emerges fairly easily. But that is speculation, of course. Let these scientists discover more basic chemistry at the heart of the origins of life, and maybe we'll be able to make lekker new monsters in our own kitchens LOL!
:)

There's a bit of a logical conundrum here, "Privileged planet" sort of cements our special place in creation, but finely tuned universe sort of undermines it.
 
All crystals 'self-assemble' under locally acting rules. Their component
'soldiers', floating in free solution in water, spontaneously plug
themselves into 'gaps' on the surface of the existing crystal, where they
exactly fit. So a crystal may grow in solution from a tiny 'seed' - perhaps
an impurity like the sand grain at the heart of a pearl. There is no grand
design of buckyballs, quartz crystals, diamonds or anything else. This
principle of self-assembly runs right through living structure, too. DNA
itself (the genetic molecule, the molecule at the centre of all life) can be
regarded as a long, spiral crystal in which one half of the double helix
self-assembles on a template provided by the other. Viruses self-assemble
like elaborately complex crystal-clusters. The head of the T4 bacteriophage
(a virus that infects bacteria) actually looks like a single crystal.
Go into any museum and look at the collection of minerals. Even go
into a New Age shop and look at the crystals on display, along with all
the other apparatus of mumbo-jumbo and kitsch con-trickery
. The
crystals won't respond to your attempts to 'program' them for
meditation, or 'dedicate' them with warm, loving thoughts. They won't
cure you of anything, or fill the room with 'inner peace' or 'psychic
energy'. But many of them are very beautiful, and it surely only adds to
the beauty when we understand that the shapes of the crystals, the
angles of their facets, the rainbow colours that flash from inside them,
all have a precise explanation which lies deep in the patterns of atomic
lattice-work.
Crystals don't vibrate with mystical, loving energy.

A rather fun bit on this mysterious "self-assembly" that baffles Telephrone, and on crystals, for Good Larf, from Dawkins' A Devil's Chaplain.
 
Very interesting. It does rather blow most of the subsequent part of your post and your speculations about purpose out of the water though.
Could you perhaps eloborate on why you would say so?

Ain't chemistry wonderful! As I have tried to explain to you before, the same atoms and molecules under the same conditions react in the same way.
I think perhaps you missed the point were exact same conditions right down to the smallest detail has never been created and is unlikely to be created anytime soon. Hence your statement is unprovable. Yes for large systems you can emulate chemical reactions that will yield similar results, but because of quantum indeterminancy you will never be able to create two conditions thast react exactly the same.


A rather fun bit on this mysterious "self-assembly" that baffles Telephrone, and on crystals, for Good Larf, from Dawkins' A Devil's Chaplain.
What is baffling is why anyone would want to quote from atheism's poster-child when he has laid bare his massive hypocrisy for all to see.

I also think you overestimate as well as misunderstand self-organization.
Incrediblly complex ice crystals can self-organize when water freezes, however these crystals are unable to catalyze the formation of other ice crystals. Not a single example exists whereby prebiotic synthesis scenarios lead to the formation of a molecule that is capable to catalyze the synthesis of molecules of its own kind. This phenomenon has never been observed in nature or, even, in the most ingenious laboratory condition. So while living system make use of self-organizing principles, abiotic systems can't as they tend to reach an equilibrium for certain circumstances. So I think what you missed when reading the above article is that once the peptide string needed for ribosome formation emerged, the formation of the structure was inevitable. Sort of like an inevitable solution that will be reached again and again if you replay the tape of life, and once life has the machinery, it is on its inevitable way towards other self-organizing systems and solutions that are part of the system.

Now, I don't know if you any good in understanding chemistry, but if you have any kind of knowledge you would be aware of the massive problems that face pre-biotic chemistry and explanations for the emergence of self-sustained self-replicating organisms. Sort of like finding a mechanism how gophers can unwittingly make this.
big_lineas-de-nazca-el-mono.jpg

Hey, it is not impossible, just give a little time for science to iron out the problems, even though there is no mechanism as of yet. Now there are rumours intelligent designers can make it, but there is no evidence evidence of these designers. Yes, the Nazca people lived in those areas, but there is reason to conclude they could make when blind forces can explain it just as well.

There's a bit of a logical conundrum here, "Privileged planet" sort of cements our special place in creation, but finely tuned universe sort of undermines it.
Nah, only "sort of" if you can't find a solution to the "conundrum". Well, can you find one?

So Phronesis, when are you turning atheist? :D
Mmmm, let's see what I need to be an atheist:
1) Act like an arse: Tick, yes I am sorry but I intend to change that and let you guys show people how to be proper arses. Of course there are nice atheists, sadly the rest are muddying the image through their action.
2) Suffer from cognitive dissonance every day because I believe in utter crap: Nope sorry, I will leave that to you guys. If you guys want to be crappers, so be it:
The Crapper:
Believes so strongly that he is the result of never ending crap that happens for no reason at all. After all, he is just another one of the crappers that just so happened to spawn... well more crap.
But beware, if you question this type of reasoning and rationality, you will be hit with a barrage of.... more crap.
Oh well, at least the Crapper knows his beliefs are just... well... more crap. Fortunately there are no churches for Crappers, apparently the stench left by cognitive dissonance could not be tolerated even by the members.

No thanks, you guys can believe that, leave the people that believe in logic, rationality and intentionality alone. Go on your own little crusades of complete and utter pointlesseness :D.
 
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Molecular Machine Turns Packaged Messenger RNA Into A Linear Transcript

ScienceDaily (Feb. 23, 2009) — For RNA, the gateway to a productive life outside the nucleus is the nuclear pore complex, an amalgamation of 30 kinds of proteins that regulates all traffic passing through the nuclear membrane. New research from Rockefeller University shows that one of these proteins magnetically couples with a special molecule — a helicase — to form a machine that unpacks balled-up messenger RNA particles so that they can be translated.
Sometimes complex machinery is needed to organize structures into their correct orientation so that they can perform their correct function.
 
Could you perhaps eloborate on why you would say so?

As expected, "basic chemistry" accounts for events that you try to explain by mystical means.

I think perhaps you missed the point were exact same conditions right down to the smallest detail has never been created and is unlikely to be created anytime soon. Hence your statement is unprovable. Yes for large systems you can emulate chemical reactions that will yield similar results, but because of quantum indeterminancy you will never be able to create two conditions thast react exactly the same.

Not quite old chap. As Hawking has said:

The unpredictable, random element comes in only when we try to interpret the wave in terms of the positions and velocities of particles.

Not too relevant at the levels of ordinary chemistry we are talking about. Unless, of course, basic chemical reactions are completely random and uncertain, like your car's number 3 cylinder turning petrol-and-air into Caesium-137 every so often LOL!

Looks like you are not "any good in understanding chemistry" yourself!

What is baffling is why anyone would want to quote from atheism's poster-child when he has laid bare his massive hypocrisy for all to see.

He has? Keep up the insults and ad hominems - ignore the substance LOL!

On the subject of substance - not too much in your response it seems, old boy. Mothership letting you down a bit I think.
 
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