Bloom Energy

HartsockZA

HartsockZA

Expert Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Messages
2,590
Reaction score
1,853
Location
Pretoria, Garsfontein
So no one talks about Bloom energy so I wonder would it be a possible solution for South Africa and the renewable market?
I mean their new "Server Cabinet" can power around 200KW/H which if I am not mistaken if your average South African home consumes around 6KW/H with one box you could supply 33/34 homes.

I mean since everyone is talking getting off the grid and companies that need a better solution.
 
It's kWh if it it's energy you are talking about.
Is it not something similar to that massive battery Eskom wants to buy?
 
The problem I have starts with the choice of name. It is not a "server" that is just typical marketing hype and BS.

It is a Fuel Cell --- why not call it a Bloom Fuel Cell?
To understand how it works, does not require some mysticism at all -- just swot up on how fuel cells work.

The process involves the burning of a fuel to generate heat and convert the heat energy into chemical energy and then electrical energy.

Pretty standard stuff, no magic.

The fuels are mostly carbon fuels which generate CO2 as a by-product. The deal is about, "do they produce less CO2 than standard energy systems"?
And lastly how efficient are they in the energy conversion process?

Then it is about modularity. Are they modular units small enough to deploy at homes? Or, is it a community-sized solution? Currently, the systems are not large scale systems able to compete with coal-fired energy stations.
 
Last edited:
Geoff.D said:
The problem I have starts with the choice of name. It is not a "server" that is kist typical marketing hype and BS.

It is a Fuel Cell --- why not call it a Bloom Fuel Cell?
To understand how it works, does not require some mysticism at all -- juts swot up on how fuel cells work.

The process involves the brining of a fuel to generate hat and convert the heat energy into chemical energy and then electrical energy.

Pretty standard stuff, no magic.

The fuels are mostly carbon fuels which generate CO2 as a by-product. The deal is about, "do they produce less CO2 than standard energy systems"?
And lastly how efficient are they in the energy conversion process?

Then it is about modularity. Are they modular done to inits small enough to deploy at homes? Or, is it a community-sized solution? Currently, the systems are not large scale systems able to compete with coal-fired energy stations.
Click to expand...
From what research I have done and what they're feeding all those "sheep" they apparently produce 50% less CO2 than standard energy systems. As for energy efficiency that is the question I could only find total output to be at the 200kwh mark per unit so I'd assume per cell if each cabinet holds 6 cells is around 33kwh with a probable lifespan of 10 years? They used to have the specs sheet on their site but no longer.

Apparently, according to them their efficiency rating from the older bloom unit was 50% and they're boasting that this one is around 60% which was last reported some time ago.

Humbled Opinion, but if this was a pile of toss would you see the likes of Google and a couple of hug US brands use them for data centers and such?
 
Somebody has to try these things. Just because it is Google or a large data centre owner is the one does not guarantee that it is going to work.
 
HartsockZA said:
Humbled Opinion, but if this was a pile of toss would you see the likes of Google and a couple of hug US brands use them for data centers and such?
Click to expand...

If Theranos has taught us anything, the support of big tech and famous people means very little, as they can also be fooled. I'm not saying this is the case here, just that one should be very sceptical of any claims that aren't tested extensively by unbiased third-parties.
 
I think Both @AntennaMan & @Geoff.D You guys need to go then and do your own form of research and then come to the table. Understandably one would think that @AntennaMan but for a company that's well over a decade old that has somehow attracted not only private investors but also utility companies in the States you'd think it's a bust. I mean there are actual reports when parts of the US grid collapsed places where they had these deployed still had power.

As @Geoff.D said fuel cell technology has been around for a long time already maybe this NASA rocket scientist has it figured? however, I am sure if it was a total bust I wouldn't see these guys invest the amount of money into it if it was indeed a farce. here's another one of those articles, not two days old. Article here Maybe it's fake news as they call it, haven't read the article completely thought it was a good post since a court ruled in favor of the system...

Edit: If I had a company big enough to buy one of those bad boys, I'd get one for testing here in South Africa and pump all the crap the politicians feed us into it Haha
 
Last edited:
HartsockZA said:
I think Both @AntennaMan & @Geoff.D You guys need to go then and do your own form of research and then come to the table. Understandably one would think that @AntennaMan but for a company that's well over a decade old that has somehow attracted not only private investors but also utility companies in the States you'd think it's a bust. I mean there are actual reports when parts of the US grid collapsed places where they had these deployed still had power.

As @Geoff.D said fuel cell technology has been around for a long time already maybe this NASA rocket scientist has it figured? however, I am sure if it was a total bust I wouldn't see these guys invest the amount of money into it if it was indeed a farce. here's another one of those articles, not two days old. Article here Maybe it's fake news as they call it, haven't read the article completely thought it was a good post since a court ruled in favor of the system...
Click to expand...

I never said I discounted this product. I just said that support from big tech does not always mean anything.
 
Fuel cells have been very successfully used as small scale units. But mostly the hydrogen ones.
The interesting part of the Bloom fuel cells is that the cells are to a certain extent fuel source independent.
More experimentation is required and we should be glad that someone is financing that experimentation.
But to punt this as a replacement solution right now is too early.
The argument that places using them have been shown to remain up and running has more to do with regulation than the technology. The US regulations allow the existence of energy grids independent of the national grid which means isolation, which means the smaller independent grids will remain up.
Those regs is what is holding up things here. If towns and provinces can create their own grids, we will see more alternatives being used and we will see some areas not affected by national grid failures.
 
There are quite a few claims that are very badly explained and substantiated about the Bloom fuel cells.
One is the "always on" statement. They are not always on. Cut the fuel flow and the generation stops.
The next is the non combustion statement. A carbon fuel in the presence of oxygen is a chemical process normally described as a combustion process that generates heat and by products.
There is just too much creative marketing BS around the idea which makes many very suspicious and is unnecessary. Just table the facts about the process so that it can be subjected to normal scientific peer review.
 

Unless I am reading this incorrectly. According to the spec sheets on their website, their idea of "variable fuel source" appears to be either natural gas or biogas.

The question I would ask is would the fuel cost savings with the reputed efficiency of 50-60% counter the cost of the installation? What is the total cost per kWh of production compared to just having a normal diesel generator?
 
Very valid questions. Which are not answered by any references I can find.
The system just like any other power system requires a steady supply of fuel
There are efficiencies associated with the energy conversion.

Not trying to shoot the system down, just trying to get hold of information to put the system into perspective.
And that is where the current marketing BS used is not helping.
 
Last edited:
Ah finally some open discussions. Cause honestly was sick of wind and solar and generator discussions. So thank you for taking part
 
Here is a reference about energy conversion efficiency that helps to place fuel cells and the Bloom Fuel Cell into perspective.

en.wikipedia.org

Energy conversion efficiency - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

There is a table that list fuel cells having conversion efficiency of up to 85%.
The bloom system is, therefore, a very efficient fuel cell and a viable alternative to standard diesel generators as a backup supply or as a prime mover. Combustion engines are listed as up to 50% efficient.

Would be very interesting to see an analysis of the efficiency of a Fuel Cell plotted against altitude ( if it is a factor at all?). Diesel generators are notoriously inefficient at high altitudes.

There are so many other ways for promoters of Fuel Cells to "sell" their products or solutions other than dubious analogies to IT systems.
 
Last edited:
Just reading the info on their site a little more. The site talks about the reliability of the system and using the "robust natural gas pipeline system". I wonder if these cells are intended to be used in countries with an existing plumbed in gas source. In SA, unless you have piped gas, you would probably have to include the costs of local gas storage and the transport of the gas from the nearest depot.
 
Although the fuel cells are able to use other sources of energy, The info available suggests that the cells are designed to work optimally with gas.
So in SA, it would be a problem to implement without a reliable piped source of natural gas or without a rather complicated gas storage system in place. There are a few places where it may be viable, however - it would need evaluation ( Mossgas), and anywhere with access to piped gas from our neighbours (Moz), or any industrial process that generates gas as a by-product.
 
Last edited:
Geoff.D said:
Although the fuel cells are able to use other sources of energy, The info available suggests that the cells are designed to work optimally with gas.
So in SA, it would be a problem to implement without a reliable piped source of natural gas or without a rather complicated gas storage system in place. There are a few places where it may be viable, however - it would need evaluation ( Mossgas), and anywhere with access to piped gas from our neighbours (Moz), or any industrial process that generates gas as a by-product.
Click to expand...
That's easy to do, piping gas and creating stockpiles for it. I mean look at the BMW factory out Rustenburg. They pull tons of crap to be digested for their power facility.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top
Sign up to the MyBroadband newsletter
X