Broadband. New Rules Offend

Karnaugh said:
No, you're damaging the forum with your closed minded attitude. ICASA's regulations will be damaging. You seem to be of the impression that people that have spent over 10 years in this industry have no idea wat they are talking about, which is rather strange.

Please ban me, I'm sure it will give the public a very good idea of how you're only interested in hearing praise for your regulation ideas and nothing of the other scope.
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Are you incapable of reading what I write here? Where have we ever said regulate everything? Prove it or shut up!

As far as people who have "spent 10 years in the industry" are concerned I have a great deal of respect for business. I have respect for those that can appreciate that the situation in SA is far from even remotely being adequate. I am affraid most businesses in our telecoms industry need some kind of attitude adjustment if what I am reading in industry communications are indeed the norm. There are examples of companies who are awake to the advantages involved in serving customers instead of the other way around and I applaud them and love interacting with such people. But if you are a business who congratulates bit-caps being instituted just because it gives you a better chance of competing with bigger ISPs or something to that effect because you are 3rd in the cue to the Telkom teet that feeds you, then I am affraid the market obviously is hampered by you and I suggest you go into another field of business. Consumers should not suffer in order to make business comfortable.

You have a knack for selectively responding to posts made in response to yours. I have had it. Give me a glimmer of hope in your future posts or I will have to ban you. Not for having a different view, but for having a destructive attitude. As I said, being critical is okay, but attacking the forum in a blatant effort to hurt it instead of adding "nutritious" opinions even if they are contradictory is a reason enough for me to ban you. We have been here before Karnaugh and people who know me, know I hate banning people...
 
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Instead of trying to micromanage Telkom, why not just make it an imperative for them provide that which the country requires while they are a de facto monopoly.

For instance if the DOC decreed that Telecom's enumeration would be pegged at the same levels of the public Service and that all income in excess of expenditure (determined by auditors appointed per audit from a panel) be reinvested into provision of infrastructure and price reductions of current infrastructure, until such time as there is a viable SNO, as determined by the DOC. i.e. No dividends until this decree no longer applies ...

This would:

  1. Give a huge incentive to Telkom management to comply or move out
  2. Force Telkom to spend money on infrastructure
  3. Force Telkom to provide better prices
  4. Remove the incentive to force share prices up - (there wont be any dividends)

I am aware that not all i's are dotted and t's crossed and that trucks can be driven thru this post by lawers, but I'm sure the same lawers could make this watertight.

I'm also aware that this suggestion appears to fly in the face of our new demography, but our current telecomms situation is certainly not democratic.
 
bekdik said:
Instead of trying to micromanage Telkom, why not just make it an imperative for them provide that which the country requires while they are a de facto monopoly.

For instance if the DOC decreed that Telecom's enumeration would be pegged at the same levels of the public Service and that all income in excess of expenditure (determined by auditors appointed per audit from a panel) be reinvested into provision of infrastructure and price reductions of current infrastructure, until such time as there is a viable SNO, as determined by the DOC. i.e. No dividends until this decree no longer applies ...

This would:

  1. Give a huge incentive to Telkom management to comply or move out
  2. Force Telkom to spend money on infrastructure
  3. Force Telkom to provide better prices
  4. Remove the incentive to force share prices up - (there wont be any dividends)

I am aware that not all i's are dotted and t's crossed and that trucks can be driven thru this post by lawers, but I'm sure the same lawers could make this watertight.

I'm also aware that this suggestion appears to fly in the face of our new demography, but our current telecomms situation is certainly not democratic.
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Well, they should never have privatized it in the first place without competition. IMO Telkom should have and still needs to be split up into smaller baby Telkoms and forced to compete.

The more open competition, the less regulation is required... It is a sliding scale... well, sort of....

:D
 
Maybe ICASA should ask Telkom and the ISP's to prove that their rates and services compare favourbly with International norms...

If not, ICASA should rule on maximum rates according to the International norms.
 
antowan said:
Well, they should never have privatized it in the first place without competition.
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That's a shorter version of what I'm attempting to say :D

As the are privatised, and probably should remain so when the playing fields are levelled, I'm trying to suggest a way around the current impasse, preferably without looking at what should/shouldn't have happened in the past - we need to move on from where we are.
 
bekdik said:
That's a shorter version of what I'm attempting to say :D

As the are privatised, and probably should remain so when the playing fields are levelled, I'm trying to suggest a way around the current impasse, preferably without looking at what should/shouldn't have happened in the past - we need to move on from where we are.
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:D
 
I do believe ISPA's and other ISP's fears are valid. As I indicated before, I don't think these draft regulations are even of draft quality at all.

We need someone who can write proper legal english to sit down, and clear this thing up. Obviously the ICASA council is incapable of doing that, so I propose we pay some lawyers to do it on their behalf.

I have to say that I would have expected ISPA itsself to propose something more salient, rather than just say the regulations aren't good.
 
Greg Massel is wrong ! I have met him as well and he is bright, but I fear his bulb has dimmed on this one.

Yes, the recommendations by ICASA is not very well written, but it is to be expected. We should point them in the right direction or ask them to give clarification on what their intention was with said document.

Competition is always good and this favours the customer. Strong competition is what thinned out the computing hardware sector. The same type of competition is required in telecoms, not the "I've got your back covered " competition the cellular networks are practicing. I am talking about the type of competition where only the companies that are customer focussed will survive.

Therefor untill proven otherwise I say that Mr. Massel is merely a puppet of the ISP industry, ISPA is on the side of business, not the consumer.

Somehow his views are very closely alligned with that of his previous employer Douglas Reed / Datapro, who stood infront of the MyADSL crowd in November and proclaimed that what Telkom was doing is a good thing.

Good for their troubled bottom line, that's all.
 
Juice said:
Unfortunately they highlight a concern I've been having as well. Let's say that Telkom is forced to abolish line rental. There is NOTHING in the draft regulations, as far as I know, that is stopping them from simply bundling the costs (formerly known as line-rental) with the wholesale pricing of bandwidth. So now your Telkom bill will have hardly anything on it, but your ISP will be debitting you for the difference. In the end, you may pay exactly the same as before and there's nothing in the draft that says they can't charge you even more. And worse, now the focus is off Telkom and everyone thinks the ISP is the bad guy.
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YUP - It's awesome ! No longer will the general public think that ADSL can be purchased for 200 bucks a month. Now the real price will be visible. No more misleading and misrepresenting the general public.
Juice said:
As far as the cap is concerned, ICASA should be more clear about the INTENT of the regulations. They are ambiguous. They should say what they mean. If they MEANT that you should get a 10Gb cap for the same price as a 3Gb cap (as we all believe was the intention) then they should have said so. They didn't, so again there's nothing to stop Telkom from simply bundling the cost of the increased cap with the wholesale price of bandwidth.
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It does not matter - the ISP's are currently able to provide 10GB at marginally more than Telkom's 3GB. 3GB is a truly unfair amount, and the effect that the 3GB limit has on the local industry is terrible. This is what the 10GB limit raising is all about. Not the costs !
Juice said:
So, what have we got then? Nothing. We won't pay line rental directly, and we'll be capped (internationally only though!) at 10Gb. But where you may be paying R600 a month for line rental and subscription now, you may very well still be paying R600 just for the subscription. And where you were paying R1200 per month for 3 consecutive 3Gb accounts before, you may very well pay R1200 per month for a single 10Gb acccount now. And honestly, who's going to pay that?..[cut by stoke]...Juice
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We have a real representation of the ADSL offering will full visibility of the actual price, and we have set the minimum throughput that should be allowed for a person to enjoy the internet and encourage the growth of the local internet.

Do you agree Juice ?
 
LOL.

You what I love?
People who listen.
People who think things through.
People who appreciate the opinions of others as an opportunity to learn something.
People who engage in dialogue as a means of forming a broader perspective rather than as a means of forcing their opinion on others.

Moderators are made so for a reason.

This thread as officially reached 'pointlessness'
(I'll misspell by myself rather than get google to mispell for me ;) )
 
stoke said:
We have a real representation of the ADSL offering will full visibility of the actual price, and we have set the minimum throughput that should be allowed for a person to enjoy the internet and encourage the growth of the local internet.

Do you agree Juice ?
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Er... no. We do not have a guarantee of cheaper broadband. You can have all of the above if you're willing to pay for it. It has to be cheaper to "encourage the growth of the local internet".

Juice
 
I agree with closing the "loop holes" in the regulations.
We don't want Telkom to do what they did Nov 1st where they inflate the price "elsewhere" when the ICASA findings document was released earlier and threatened dropping the line access fee.
We don't want them to turn around and say SAIX isn't TELKOM and thus can't be regulated. ALL these loop holes MUST BE CLOSED, or TELKOM will take us for a ride again!!!!
 
This entire thing is starting to sound more and more like politics to me, rather than opposing that which is wrong and fighting for that which is good every body is only fighting for their own interest, rather than saying yes the document was a bit vague at this stage or the other and we propose this, different parties are saying no it's bad, only because it may be bad for them, but given their role as a business some parties should have this view. So that is were we need a independent users association, like myAdsl but with more legal and financial power! I agree with some posts earlier that, why not all the big role players were involved in the public hearings, and gave their input! But now when it hit the fan every body who may be adversely affected are jumping up and down!

One more thing, we should not be fighting with each other!! I know frustration levels are high, I deal with this a lot as a project leader, but come on Karnaugh and antowan shake hands and lets focus on the future of broadband in SA, and consumer interests!
 
Juice said:
Er... no. We do not have a guarantee of cheaper broadband. You can have all of the above if you're willing to pay for it. It has to be cheaper to "encourage the growth of the local internet".
Juice
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Agree'd. But remember - the only reason that telkom's prices are still regulated is because of the lack of competition - now that there is competition [in 6 months time] - these price regulations will fall away and we need real clarity and visibility to see which product is the better product between a SNO offering and a Telkom offering. These recommendations will clear that confusion up.

Cheaper broadband ... well - are you indiciating that once the SNO is up and running, that ICASA must still regulate the price of all Telkom's products ?

Surely then ICASA must also regulate SNO's prices as well, and is that regulated approach going to encourage competition ?
 
bekdik said:
Do you really think that SNO will have offerings for man n the street by 6 months from now?
I don't.
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Yup - I think that IS/WebAfrica/AYCE/... will be able to purchase bandwidth from SNO in 6 months time. But - time will tell. I am dead sure that every day that they delay costs them a fortune ...
 
The fact that the SNO
a. Already has a national fibre network
b. Isn't ready to start operating until 6 months time
c. Isn't sure of the integrety of their network
d. Does want to get into a price war

Doesn't bode very well at all for their management, or business principles. If I were them I would have announced the name of the company of Friday when the license was granted, Already started advertising and already be connecting ISPs before the end of the year. They've got to invest R9Billion in infrastructure, I would think starting to do turnover would be a priority.
 
/me wonders how on earth they can take their time like this.
/me wonders if this is not a big scam to bankrupt and embarrass Transtel and Esitel.
/me decides to stop speculating.
 
Have you guys noticed that the threads are getting shorter and shorter...
We discussed the major subjects 100 times over.
We all know that Gov, Telkom, ICASA and now SNO are in the same boat.
From what I can see nothing will change short term. SNO is there firstly to make $$$ from corporates, Gov makes money from Telkom and SNO and ICASA is a waste of creative (stalling) time. They release the Draft which has been writted by a 12 year old, why, well you see it must be discussed, rediscussed, gone to Gov for reassesment, sent back to ICASA, referred back to the parties involved, etc, etc, etc. I predict 12 months more of the same.
Telkom and SNO will be just like Vodakom and MTN. Competition my arse!
And there's nothing you nor I can do about it.
 
Tomasz-London said:
And there's nothing you nor I can do about it.
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Lots to do... create WISPs, sponsor the municipalities who are building networks, support IS... etc.
 
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