BSc Computer Science vs BScHons Computer Science ?

[eljosco99]

I'd like to know if it's worth the extra year to attain the Honours Degree. I have tried researching and asking people but it seems like a mixed bag and there isn't much to draw from. I am on my way to completing the regular BSc. My parents are happy to financially support me for an extra year to get the Honours. If I'm going to get it anyway I might as well do it now rather than later with my own savings or by having to juggle a job and a degree. On the other hand I'd like to start earning a salary and gaining experience as soon as possible.

Will not having the Honours degree impact the possibility of emigration (which I'm sure is difficult anyway) ? Will my degree not be recognized in some countries where BSc degrees are 4 years ? How much easier would the Honours Degree make getting a job be here in South Africa ?

That's about it. I've always heard that degrees are incredibly important yet I often seen people complaining about university grads and many devs seem to be self-taught. I just want to know if I'm on the right path. Thanks.

 

[retromodcoza]

You are on the right path. Do the honors degree.

I have an honours in information systems. Arguably , this is a "softer" option than computer science although when I did it it was more computer sciency than it is now.

You get looked at differently if you have honours. It opens doors and more people say "yes" to you and listen to you than otherwise would. You get viewed as someone of merit who is smart and accomplished and you get taken seriously , even if you are a moron. The viewpoint is even further amplified if you have a masters.

Is any of this justified or warranted? NO. But that is the way of the world.

Coding is self taught no matter what degree you have. You'll get some theory and basic practice in compsci but real-world development is another story.

On doing it now or later , I guarantee that once you leave uni you won't want to go back. Do people do it? Yes , but they are in a very small minority. Forgo the salary for a year. Developers and comsci grads are in demand. You will be working all day everyday for the rest of your life , so if you have the opportunity to do honours paid up then do it.

Honours makes everything easier. Getting a job in SA. Moving overseas. Points systems to enter most countries give you a bump for a post-grad degree as opposed to a normal one. Employers will view you more favorably and you'll go to the top of the pile of considered candidates.

The masters guys may jump in here and tell you that Masters will make you even more desirable and that thats the gold standard to aim for. Thats probably true. But the crowd really starts to thin out once you reach honours , and you will have less competition among your peers.

Dont be in a rush to get out into the world. You have plenty of time.

 

[LegionnaireJ]

retromodcoza said it perfectly.

Also did my honours in CompSci - and would not have got the opportunity I did without it.

Cannot really add anything to retromodcoza's reply, except that I agree 100%. Its worth it now, do it. I did it while working full-time - its a challenge on another level to keep motivated. Rather take the opportunity you have now.

And good luck!

 

[cguy]

Short answer: Do the honours degree.

Will not having the Honours degree impact the possibility of emigration (which I'm sure is difficult anyway) ? Will my degree not be recognized in some countries where BSc degrees are 4 years ?
Yes - in some countries a 3 year SA BSc. degree isn't recognized as a Bachelors Degree (e.g., USA). In some countries it is recognized, but not always equivalent (e..g, UK).

How much easier would the Honours Degree make getting a job be here in South Africa ?
It's a better paper qualification. It also means you did a lot more advanced CS (as in CS that actually used your degree), usually a larger project, and from a selection perspective, it means that your are likely in the upper part of your 3rd year class.

On the other hand I'd like to start earning a salary and gaining experience as soon as possible.
Experience is great, but you've got 40 years to get experience (give or take a decade). Also, the experience you get for the first few years as a 3rd year graduate is likely not going to be as good as the experience you get as an honours graduate (different types/levels of jobs are available).

I've always heard that degrees are incredibly important yet I often seen people complaining about university grads and many devs seem to be self-taught.
There is almost always a strong element of selection bias over here. In places where many people without degrees work with people with degrees, it usually implies that the work does not require a degree. This typically means, two things: 1) There isn't a significant advantage from having the degree for that type of work, 2) The people with degrees working there, are probably not the strongest out of their year.

Many great devs are certainly self taught. It is important to remember that this is all about distributions. Imagine 3 normal distributions plotted on a graph, where the X axis can be "success"/money/interesting-work/ability-to-emigrate, etc. where each of these is matric, bsc, and bsc. hons respectively. They're certainly going to overlap a fair amount, which is why there is no strict ordering between them, however, given a choice, you want to be drawn from the one shifted the most to the right.

 

[cguy]

The masters guys may jump in here and tell you that Masters will make you even more desirable and that thats the gold standard to aim for. Thats probably true. But the crowd really starts to thin out once you reach honours , and you will have less competition among your peers.

Agreed. It certainly can, as does a doctorate even more, however, there is the risk of becoming too academic. In practice, I've seen this make many people much much stronger at solving real world problems, while I've seen others disconnect completely. It's up to the individual where they take it - generally speaking though, if you do a BSc(hons), and then do an MSc or PhD that reads more like a social science degree, you're going to end up in the second camp.

 

[eljosco99]

These are some really valuable replies, thanks guys

 

[whatwhat]

What is the requirements for masters if you have a 3 year B.Sc? Can you get work experience and use that to enroll into a masters program or do you need honors first?

 

[cguy]

What is the requirements for masters if you have a 3 year B.Sc? Can you get work experience and use that to enroll into a masters program or do you need honors first?

Usually an honours degree with good marks.

The key phrase for the work experience route you are looking for is: RPL (Recognition of Prior Learning)
https://www.uj.ac.za/studyatUJ/sec/Pages/Recognition_of_Prior_Learning.aspx

RPL takes a while (proof, assessment, etc.), for just an honours degree, I suggest rather just doing, and getting in the course work and exposure to the staff (more likely to successfully finish your masters degree afterwards).

In my limited experience, the (very) few RPL people I've encountered, went on to do an MSc on topics that didn't actually involve any theory, experiments, stats or in fact, any science at all (usually topics like "digital story telling", or "the impact of 3G on rural communities", etc.). Of course, YMMV - especially, if it's just an honours degree that's missing.

 

[whatwhat]

Usually an honours degree with good marks.

The key phrase for the work experience route you are looking for is: RPL (Recognition of Prior Learning)
https://www.uj.ac.za/studyatUJ/sec/Pages/Recognition_of_Prior_Learning.aspx

RPL takes a while (proof, assessment, etc.), for just an honours degree, I suggest rather just doing, and getting in the course work and exposure to the staff (more likely to successfully finish your masters degree afterwards).

In my limited experience, the (very) few RPL people I've encountered, went on to do an MSc on topics that didn't actually involve any theory, experiments, stats or in fact, any science at all (usually topics like "digital story telling", or "the impact of 3G on rural communities", etc.). Of course, YMMV - especially, if it's just an honours degree that's missing.

I've got some friends who just completed (and are completing) their 3 year Unisa degrees, however they have been working for 10+ years in the software industry. So they were wondering if they could skip the honours part due to the work experience and spend the time doing M.Sc instead (probably through Unisa as well)

Personally I have no idea hence I thought to ask here.

 

[Genisys]

I've got some friends who just completed (and are completing) their 3 year Unisa degrees, however they have been working for 10+ years in the software industry. So they were wondering if they could skip the honours part due to the work experience and spend the time doing M.Sc instead (probably through Unisa as well)

Personally I have no idea hence I thought to ask here.

Hons is where people find out what fields of research interest them and they start to narrow down to a specific filed of research/study. By all means, skip hons, but just know that a 3rd year research module isn't a Masters research Module, not is it even close to an academic research paper. The point of Hons is to prepare students for the research aspect of a Masters degree, skipping it will leave a learner a great disadvantage. Academic writing is really not the same as what is done in undergrad. There is a reason Hons is considered the hardest part of studies, the deep dive into academic writing and research in hons is quiet a step up from undergrad work. There are a lot of fundamental aspects of proper literature research that isn't learned in undergrad degrees. Someone like cguy might say academic writing is easy, but it really isn't.

 

[cguy]

Hons is where people find out what fields of research interest them and they start to narrow down to a specific filed of research/study. By all means, skip hons, but just know that a 3rd year research module isn't a Masters research Module, not is it even close to an academic research paper. The point of Hons is to prepare students for the research aspect of a Masters degree, skipping it will leave a learner a great disadvantage. Academic writing is really not the same as what is done in undergrad. There is a reason Hons is considered the hardest part of studies, the deep dive into academic writing and research in hons is quiet a step up from undergrad work. There are a lot of fundamental aspects of proper literature research that isn't learned in undergrad degrees. Someone like cguy might say academic writing is easy, but it really isn't.

^ you said it better than me. Honours was where I was first introduced to topics at a level that I could bridge into a masters degree, and also where I first encountered proper research and academic writing for the first time.

I was lucky enough to get a journal publication out of my honours degree (pretty rare). It was incredibly difficult - I had never written like that before, and had never had to read papers that advanced before (background, references, etc.), but it set me up well for doing my masters (by research).

 

[Moonlit8377]

@eljosco99 Did you end up doing the honours' degree? And if so, how was it? And did obtaining it hold up to the previous responses in this thread?

 

[slimeball]

Usually an honours degree with good marks.

The reference for "good marks" can vary significantly and some masters degrees in SA, especially for engineering arn't that competitive. If you get a 60+% (2nd class honours) average (approx B US grade) and above you have a pretty decent shot at getting into masters in SA. A lot of my friends went overseas to do their masters where entry requirements are higher depending on the university.

 

[axsis]

It's probably worth doing an honours degree if you want to move to another country at some point.

What is the requirements for masters if you have a 3 year B.Sc? Can you get work experience and use that to enroll into a masters program or do you need honors first?

Regarding a Masters degree, you need to decide what type of degree you want, a coursework masters is VERY different to a research Masters. A research Masters can be as taxing as a PhD. I think it is possible to start a masters degree with prior experience as the backing BUT you need to also have the supervisor's support and I'm really not sure how often this is done. Also bare in mind dissertation/thesis writing is very different to even writing for an honours project. Your supervisor and topic are both important choices.

As someone with a Masters degree (by research), it hasn't really helped my career as such, actually because it took so long to finish, it hindered it. I learned some valuable skills in the long run and learned I don't really want to pursue academia further.

^ you said it better than me. Honours was where I was first introduced to topics at a level that I could bridge into a masters degree, and also where I first encountered proper research and academic writing for the first time.

I was lucky enough to get a journal publication out of my honours degree (pretty rare). It was incredibly difficult - I had never written like that before, and had never had to read papers that advanced before (background, references, etc.), but it set me up well for doing my masters (by research).

Yeah it's very rare to get a journal level publication out of an honours degree, you're even lucky if you get something into a local conference at that level. Well done . But yeah everyone underestimates the writing level for a Masters by research. :|

Edit: If you do want to do a Masters but have to do Honours, do something for your honours project that is very closely related to your planned Masters degree. This will help in the long run, at best it gives you a pretty good head start for your literature review.

 

[cguy]

As someone with a Masters degree (by research), it hasn't really helped my career as such, actually because it took so long to finish, it hindered it. I learned some valuable skills in the long run and learned I don't really want to pursue academia further.

I have often had concerns with the masters by research degrees in SA. One learned a lot, and I think it is worthwhile if one can wrap it up quickly (18-24 months), but in my old lab, the vast majority were taking 3-4 years, and some even longer. I know one person who gave up after 5 years and another who gave up after 10 (the last few years were part time, of course).

I really think that the supervisors should be setting real deadlines. Being academics, they very often put little to no pressure on the students to meet milestones.

In the US almost all the Masters degrees are done by coursework. It’s typically 18-24 months, and although it’s not research focused, the students tend to have a much broader base of advanced knowledge/skills when they graduate. This also sets them up better for doing a research degree next, since the advanced work they did during their MSc allows them to find better topics and understand research papers more easily.

 

[axsis]

I have often had concerns with the masters by research degrees in SA. One learned a lot, and I think it is worthwhile if one can wrap it up quickly (18-24 months), but in my old lab, the vast majority were taking 3-4 years, and some even longer. I know one person who gave up after 5 years and another who gave up after 10 (the last few years were part time, of course).

I really think that the supervisors should be setting real deadlines. Being academics, they very often put little to no pressure on the students to meet milestones.

In the US almost all the Masters degrees are done by coursework. It’s typically 18-24 months, and although it’s not research focused, the students tend to have a much broader base of advanced knowledge/skills when they graduate. This also sets them up better for doing a research degree next, since the advanced work they did during their MSc allows them to find better topics and understand research papers more easily.

This is pretty much my experience, I didn't give up but finished after 5 years. I definitely learned how not to plan out a project and how to actually get things done but a lot of it wasn't really in my control. For one It's so easy to end up in an infinite feedback loop. I must have rewrote one chapter 6 times and we're not talking 1000 words, we're talking 5000 word rewrites with every single word and statement being nitpicked to the nth degree and sometimes ending up as it previously was. This was mostly due to one external examiner's comments on another student's work and this basically sucked up 1.5 years, and by this point you're in so deep you really don't know what to do. Quitting certainly crossed my mind a couple of times. That was what actually took up most of the time. Worse, it was soul destroying and I basically burned out (also a good lesson because I knew how not to end up in that state too but would not really recommend). I'm not saying I was blameless in this but that the circumstances also had an impact.

My big problem with all this is actually if I'd had the support I probably could have done a PhD in the UK. Masters by research at least don't come with the way many seem to view PhDs these days. It's not only limited to computer science either though.

For anyone reading this, If you are a gifted student continuing a project from Honours expect it to take 2 years. If you're normal i.e. upper second level grades and starting from scratch, it will take 3-4+ years.

I think the expectations need to be more managed and the scope of the work also needs to be realistic. Naturally you chat about these things but as the student you really have no idea how things actually work. It also helps if you don't start questioning your work and just put it on paper. Also don't raise issues that are just a bit too complex because they won't be understood.

 

[cguy]

This is pretty much my experience, I didn't give up but finished after 5 years. I definitely learned how not to plan out a project and how to actually get things done but a lot of it wasn't really in my control. For one It's so easy to end up in an infinite feedback loop. I must have rewrote one chapter 6 times and we're not talking 1000 words, we're talking 5000 word rewrites with every single word and statement being nitpicked to the nth degree and sometimes ending up as it previously was. This was mostly due to one external examiner's comments on another student's work and this basically sucked up 1.5 years, and by this point you're in so deep you really don't know what to do. Quitting certainly crossed my mind a couple of times. That was what actually took up most of the time. Worse, it was soul destroying and I basically burned out (also a good lesson because I knew how not to end up in that state too but would not really recommend). I'm not saying I was blameless in this but that the circumstances also had an impact.

Yeah, the last year of my PhD was pretty much this type of back and forth. I was working, so I wasn’t twiddling my thumbs while waiting for my supervisor, which helped at least.

My big problem with all this is actually if I'd had the support I probably could have done a PhD in the UK. Masters by research at least don't come with the way many seem to view PhDs these days. It's not only limited to computer science either though.

What do you mean by that?

For anyone reading this, If you are a gifted student continuing a project from Honours expect it to take 2 years. If you're normal i.e. upper second level grades and starting from scratch, it will take 3-4+ years.

I think the expectations need to be more managed and the scope of the work also needs to be realistic. Naturally you chat about these things but as the student you really have no idea how things actually work. It also helps if you don't start questioning your work and just put it on paper. Also don't raise issues that are just a bit too complex because they won't be understood.

Another big problem I noticed was that some students would become so familiar with their material, they would start to think it was too trivial for a thesis and then go off on tangential topics that they didn’t understand well (hence, their perception that it was more advanced), and then when they understood it… rinse and repeat. Even the most complex areas seem simple once one finally understands it all, so one must really try look at it from an outsiders perspective to gauge the sophistication of the research.