Building your own "cheaper" Mac Pro.

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Top end configuration:
http://www.futurelooks.com/new-apple-mac-pro-can-build-better-cheaper-pc-diy-style/

Entry level configuration:
http://www.futurelooks.com/can-build-better-entry-level-apple-mac-pro-via-pc-diy-cheaper/

Apparently it's not so easy. Can you do better?

[table="width: 500, class: outer_border, align: center"]
[tr]
[td]Configuration[/td]
[td]Apple[/td]
[td]Custom Build[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Top End[/td]
[td]$9,599[/td]
[td]$11,530.54[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Entry Level[/td]
[td]$2999.99[/td]
[td]$3994.65[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]
 
It's not surprising, really. For a long time now it's not been possible to spec a Dell workstation to compare a Mac Pro for the same price.
 
It's such a pity apple don't allow the option to configure it with standard desktop grade parts. You'd get most of the performance at a greatly reduced cost. I'd imagine many non pros would jump at the opportunity to own a sub $2000 Mac desktop with far greater performance than the mini which could actually play games reasonably.
 
Zyzzyva said:
It's such a pity apple don't allow the option to configure it with standard desktop grade parts. You'd get most of the performance at a greatly reduced cost. I'd imagine many non pros would jump at the opportunity to own a sub $2000 Mac desktop with far greater performance than the mini which could actually play games reasonably.
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Why would they? Their business is selling hardware.
 
bwana said:
Why would they? Their business is selling hardware.
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Most of the money is actually going to intel and amd with those ridiculously expensive xeons, and of course the pro gpu's. Offering an i7 build to order option would allow them to keep profit margins just as good while dropping the base price dramatically.

Look, i know they won't do it for obvious reasons, it just isn't their style, but there are many mac users who want power and decent graphics but are not interested in an all in one imac or an underpowered mini.

The current setups means you are looking at a shocking R35-40K just for the top cpu upgrade option, and that's entirely because they only offer intel xeon's.

Even if you buy a 12 core xeon on your own it's still not cheap. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116925
 
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There were some interesting comments on slashdot regarding a DIY build:
noise levels, all over finish, blue screening due to drivers, hardware incompatibilities, support and maintenance etc

And I would have to agree. If you're a hobbyist then by all means go DIY and fiddle to your hearts content.
If you're a business user with deadlines to meet, get the mac
 
Zyzzyva said:
Most of the money is actually going to intel and amd with those ridiculously expensive xeons, and of course the pro gpu's. Offering an i7 build to order option would allow them to keep profit margins just as good while dropping the base price dramatically.

Look, i know they won't do it for obvious reasons, it just isn't their style, but there are many mac users who want power and decent graphics but are not interested in an all in one imac or an underpowered mini.

The current setups means you are looking at a shocking R35-40K just for the top cpu upgrade option, and that's entirely because they only offer intel xeon's.

Even if you buy a 12 core xeon on your own it's still not cheap. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116925
Click to expand...

I doubt the money is going to Intel; Apple have proven time and again, that they don't release products to market without a good margin -- I recon their margin on the Mac Pro is probably around 35 to 40%.

Yet I don't believe this new Mac Pro is going to break any sales volume records; the true gain might only be a marketing one.

I'm certainly happy with my Minis -- as a server (media, file, git, ...) they're invaluable.

As to another hitting a lower power price point; I certainly would love a cheaper Mac, but I doubt it's possible to achieve without risking their profits in the iPad area.
 
kolaval said:
There were some interesting comments on slashdot regarding a DIY build:
noise levels, all over finish, blue screening due to drivers, hardware incompatibilities, support and maintenance etc

And I would have to agree. If you're a hobbyist then by all means go DIY and fiddle to your hearts content.
If you're a business user with deadlines to meet, get the mac
Click to expand...
Blue screen due to drivers...LOL! That's a Windows thing. Does not happen to PC's running OS X. The blue screen equivelant in OS X is a Kernel Panic. The screen you're on freezes and a load of text rolls down with a message to restart your computer. Not a blue screen, unless you happened to have a full screen of a blue background.:wtf:

KP's only happen due to a poor choice in hardware, or conflicting drivers and not merely because you are using 'PC' parts. (all PC's , Macs included, have PC parts). But once you know which configuration to build, KP's are a thing of the past. In fact, most popular configurations have become hassle free due to Apple including support for a larger variety of chipsets in their newer iterations of OS X.

The noise level of any PC is determined by what you use to cool your hardware. Most PC's nowadays are so silent, you would not even know it was on if not for the lights. You obviously only have experience with the cheap n nasty PC's which have noisy fans. With decent silent fans, you would have to be OCD and put your head against the case to hear the PC.:whistle:

In Tiger, it was an absolute nightmare to get a desktop on OS X up and running close to perfect. Since Snow Leopard though, it became easier. From Mountain Lion to Mavericks, everything can run 100% perfectly without much to configure. In fact, only sound drivers need modding. The rest, if you by wisely, 'just works'. (the old Apple catch-phrase is so corny!)

The only reason not to use a self-built Mac-Pro for business use would be the legality involved. As for support, anyone who can build a Mac Pro from scratch is in a position to provide hardware support. If anything dies, you can pick up off the shelf replacement items from most PC suppliers - same day repair! If it were not for the legal aspect, the ability to repair a OS X desktop within a few hours as opposed to how long an Apple repair centre would take, would make even more sense for business use than an imported Apple Mac, where spares are not always in stock at repair centres. Especially if you do not have a repair centre close to you or in the town / city where you live. The cost... well erm! Sooooo much more cost efficient. Just compare the price of a standard PC motherboard replacement to that of a Mac. On a Mac, you have to pay for a new 'logic' board as well as processor, seeing as they are integrated. Only reason they are integrated... Apple does not want you to upgrade.

Warranty... most PC components have a 3 year warranty. On a Mac... 1 year. On a repaired mac... 6 months. Unless you pay them some more for an extended warranty. Pay pay pay!

The deal-breaker... self-built Mac-pro's have much better upgrade options, expandability and can run with far superior components at a much lower cost. Apple does NOT use the most high-end components on the market. They take the best deals they can from a number of suppliers based on cost and delivery, not quality. Just go to any mac tear-down article.Gizmodo has one. You would be amazed at what they throw inside of a Mac these days. i-Macs have standard laptop components and Mac Pro's have standard PC components. Only the board configuration changes so that connections and plugs are located to best suit their exterior design (the case). Chipsets are all standard 'PC' chipsets like Intel, Realtek, Atheros, Broadcom, NEC etc. This is why hackintoshing is posiible in the first place.

If hackintoshing was completely legal, you would have access to better OS support as well. There are things I have learnt from the hackintosh community that would stun the most experienced Mac support technician.eg. Hackintoshers were the first to have USB 3.0 support on their systems at a time when Apple were trying to convince their following that USB is on the way out and had no intention of providing drivers. A brilliant coder from insanelymac modified a third party exclusive driver to work on any mac / hack. A year later, Apple implemented USB3 in their next line of Macs and used part of the universal USB 3.0 code in their own drivers. It is absolutely shocking to see how little Mac owners actually know about their OS, not to mention Apple OS support... I have fixed things on my genuine Mac-Pro that would leave Mac OS support staff speechless. They are not the wisest at the best of times. They learn text-book style and cannot think out of the box. (or may not be allowed to).
 
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I think the point is that whilst it is technically feasible to build your own Hackintosh or Windows equivalent; spec for spec, its certainly no longer guaranteed to be cheaper.

The industry's adjustment to a similar design ethos has certainly not resulted in substantially cheaper Mac equivalents.

IRO the underlying complexity of OS X, Apple's design ethos is to make Macs more approachable / easier for everyone -- that's of course why they have invested in making available "Genius bars" at Apple stores to deal with any "complexities" (yes, we all agree that Core's service is laughable)

On a similar note; I don't think Microsoft ever intended its users to have to revert to registry and driver modifications for general use.
 
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subxero said:
Now that is sensible. They should do the same with their mac minis too.
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I doubt it. They're geared more towards the consumer market who seem to view them as appliances and let's face it, when's the last time you upgraded the compressor in your refrigerator?
 
bwana said:
I doubt it. They're geared more towards the consumer market who seem to view them as appliances and let's face it, when's the last time you upgraded the compressor in your refrigerator?
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The problem is that this analogy does not hold water. When was the last time you needed to upgrade your compressor in the fridge? Do new types of food require faster compressors?

On the other hand when the complexity of your software processing demands increases, the hardware has to follow too: e.g. SD video to HD video to RAW HD video to 4K video etc. PCs and Mac Pros (former gen) were designed in a modular fashion. You could upgrade your GPU or add a second GPU in SLI mode, upgrade storage, upgrade graphics capture board, add a math co-processor in the old days, etc.

That's not to say an appliance device cannot be modular and upgradable. A Home Theater system is an appliance. But you could add in a nice pre-amp or a better D/A converter, a different DVD player or add/change any of the speakers. Even non-electronic appliance devices can be upgradable. A dinner service set could be upgraded by adding components and re-purposing existing components to different tasks.

Anyhow, it's in Apple's financial interest to make their computers less user-modifiable. A Mac Pro which can have its storage upgraded, additional connectivity methods added e.g. eSATA or USB 3, new GPUs slotted in, or even CPUs changed - as is possible with some Mac Pros, all mean LOST SALES for Apple Computer. Instead of having to upgrade your 2006 Mac Pro because it only has FW800 as the top speed, adding a USB 3/Esata 3 PCIE board prolongs its useful life. Apple loses out.
 
Space_Chief said:
The problem is that this analogy does not hold water. When was the last time you needed to upgrade your compressor in the fridge? Do new types of food require faster compressors?
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Hell - I'd love to have been able to update my old refrigerator - throw in a more efficient compressor, maybe an ice/water dispenser in the door and so on so it's not just about the requirements of the food. But what I was saying is that consumer computers, like the mini or even iMac, are just appliances.

ap·pli·ance (-plns)
n.
1. A device or instrument designed to perform a specific function, especially an electrical device, such as a toaster, for household use. See Synonyms at tool.
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Do you think
 
bwana said:
Hell - I'd love to have been able to update my old refrigerator - throw in a more efficient compressor, maybe an ice/water dispenser in the door and so on so it's not just about the requirements of the food. But what I was saying is that consumer computers, like the mini or even iMac, are just appliances.
Click to expand...

Sure. Just your toaster from 1986 will still toast the bread the same way as one bought this year and your toast will be just as delicious and crunchy. Unless the standards for bread change you know. In terms of computing your standards get updated over time and your appliance computer could do with upgradeability to maintain the same function. You want to edit home videos. Well now cameras record 1080p as standard with perhaps 3D thrown in. The old computer won't be able to keep up.

You may benefit from a more efficient compressor but you will still get the same functionality just at lower power levels if you add a compressor with say an inverter in. The ice water thing does not require a new compressor. :)

But the Mac Pro is a professional machine. So even more so, as per your own thought, it should allow upgradeability. But that won't happen because we're in the throw away era where things are not repaired or re-purposed or upgraded but thrown away and new items are purchased. It would also be bad for profit. Back in the day every appliance came with a repair manual. You could fix that radio, fridge, car, TV, oven, turntable yourself. Now even the technical repair experts throw parts away and replace them with new components.

I guess one's residence can be thought of the only real modular, upgradable thing left. Need more space, add some rooms. Need a new bathroom, add that too. Need your garden irrigated automatically? No problem. Need air con? Just install. And so on....
 
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I remember the good old days when you found out that they wanted to integrate sound cards into the motherboard. What!? No SoundBlaster!? Queue the usual comments about "lack of choice" and "limiting my freedom" and then we got used to it and that was that.
 
I certainly have no love for the trend towards soldering in of components on the new Macbooks, but Bwana's probably right in that this is to make these system's more like an appliance.

Yet because of their general adaptability they're difficult to equate to a simple appliance like a fridge or toaster

Plus if we consider that they have such a limited usable lifespan in comparison with these appliances, it's not unreasonable to expect to be able to upgrade the RAM and / or disk storage without forgoing the current investment.

That's of course the way TVs work, but with a TV we have many complementary appliances (DVD, Blueray, Sat decoder, Apple TV, Roku, ...) and that probably why we never feel pushed to upgrade the TV that often.

This analogy certainly doesn't match the laptop very well as everything is typically contained in a single unit.

The current TV model is a lot closer to how things used to work in the PC industry: separate vendors for monitor, keyboard, mouse, sound card, motherboard, RAM, ...

Personally I'd prefer Apple accommodate RAM and SSD upgrades as had been the case for the previous Macbook Pros, and is still the case with the iMac, Mac Mini and Mac Pro. I.e. lack of consistency.
 
Space_Chief said:
Sure. Just your toaster from 1986 will still toast the bread the same way as one bought this year and your toast will be just as delicious and crunchy. Unless the standards for bread change you know. In terms of computing your standards get updated over time and your appliance computer could do with upgradeability to maintain the same function. You want to edit home videos. Well now cameras record 1080p as standard with perhaps 3D thrown in. The old computer won't be able to keep up.
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I realise video plays a huge role in your life but I spend a lot of time photographing various events, especially at affluent schools, and what's everyone using to do video these days? Cellphones and point and shoots, and they're rarely bothering to edit. If they do it's often on the device itself (or they farm it out to someone like me to edit it into a few facebook friendly clips). Fact is any of today's consumer grade macs can handle their 1080p video with the greatest of ease and that's not going to change for a while.

FWIW I'm pretty much against the whole non-upgradible model Apple has been migrating towards which is why I'm hanging on to my older MBP for as long as I can.
 
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bwana said:
I realise video plays a huge role in your life but I spend a lot of time photographing various events, especially at affluent schools, and what's everyone using to do video these days? Cellphones and point and shoots, and they're rarely bothering to edit. If they do it's often on the device itself (or they farm it out to someone like me to edit it into a few facebook friendly clips). Fact is any of today's consumer grade macs can handle their 1080p video with the greatest of ease and that's not going to change for a while.
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Hi bwana. Happy New Year! I meant that in terms of longer time scales and only as one example. I agree that a Mac purchased in the last 5 years or at least since the advent of higher end Dual Core machines will be able to edit 1080p. Ten years ago, only high end professionals recorded in 1080p. Now almost every camera down to the cheapest ones does it. Which means that if you need to edit or even watch such video, well a computer from 10 years ago, is going to struggle with that. But it can also be extrapolated to photos. And web content. And gaming. Nowadays websites are loaded with JAVA, HTML5 and Flash, so computers from >10 years ago will struggle. In contrast a fridge from the 80s, is going to function just as well, except for perhaps a slightly greater power draw when compared with top end inverter driven fridges (but again these are the more expensive Green Fridges). I have a PnP purchased AEG ("Made in Germany") drill bought in the early 90s. It was on special when purchased. It still works and is able to hammer drill very nicely through a concrete ceiling. Still you're right that for many things, outside of professional use, Core2 or even Pentium 4s are more that fast enough. I'm sure G4/G5 powered macs are also good enough. So for consumers the appliance model can last a longer time. Not as long as a toaster but definitely longer than the current 1-2 year CPU sub-generation cycles (Ivy Bridge to Haswell). Do people really need to upgrade Ivy Bridge or earlier i machines to Haswell? Core2 machines to Haswell i7/5s? A strong market in Celerons and even Atoms seems to disagree. And I think the industry is looking for ways to manufacture a demand to upgrade. It's the same with TV. Do people really need full HD? Do they need "smart" features? Do they need 3D? Do they need 600MHz frame interpolation? And now 4K? Do they need that? A stagnant industry and devices which still work longer than some would wish are pushing marketing departments to up the bulldust to consumers.

I generally tend to want to be conservative in matters of computers. If it works, why upgrade? Hence if XP works on some of my very light and portable machines, I struggle to justify the reason in trashing it and moving onto a slower operating system just because a new OS is more modern. Throwing out good money to do things slower and with more software compatibility issues.

FWIW I'm pretty much against the whole non-upgradible model Apple has been migrating towards which is why I'm hanging on to my older MBP for as long as I can.
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I agree. The only reason I got the rMBP myself was that the storage was upgradable (unofficially). :) But I concur 100%.
 
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