Burned by the cloud ...

[bekdik]

Original article: http://www.wxpnews.com/
Forum: http://forums.wxpnews.com/messageview.aspx?catid=36&threadid=8256&enterthread=y

I am still unconvinced that cloud computing is the answer.

Well, yes it is an answer, but i am not sure as to who is asking the question.

Apart from the various concerns expressed in the above forum, I also have the following concerns:

1. How many cloud solutions will allow me to save ALL of my data either locally or on another cloud back up site? Will I be allowed to choose the data format, or will I be forever be held hostage by the service provider?

2. How many independent cloud service providers will provide fully compatible services, such that I can freely move between them? Or will I end up being blackmailed for ever increasing charges?

3. When the cloud service provider stops providing the service, how do I recover?

4. (added) How will cloud computing satisfy King III corporate governance? I can see some interesting legal disputes between shareholders and office bearers!!

Finally, look at the results of someone entrusting their services to the cloud

 

[The_Unbeliever]

@bekdik - Agreed.

Cloud computing sounds like a fine and wonderful solution - but I will not use it for corporate data.

1. Telkom.
2. Line speed and QoS.
3. Bandwidth costs.

 

[w1z4rd]

The clouds we host in are great. Never lost a thing. Though we only really use a cloud for stuff like mail, docs, backups and and DNS.

1. How many cloud solutions will allow me to save ALL of my data either locally or on another cloud back up site? Will I be allowed to choose the data format, or will I be forever be held hostage by the service provider?

Depends on which cloud and what you are using it for. Ive never seen a propriety format in the clouds I work with, and I have never being held hostage by a cloud provider.

2. How many independent cloud service providers will provide fully compatible services, such that I can freely move between them? Or will I end up being blackmailed for ever increasing charges?

Again, it depends on what you are using the cloud for. What do you mean easily change between them? A .doc is a .doc. a .xls is a .xls..... no matter if you are using Google documents or Microsoft Word.

3. When the cloud service provider stops providing the service, how do I recover?

Depends on what you are using the cloud for.

What are you using the cloud for that you have these concerns?

A decent cloud provider is infinity more reliable for corporate data than 99.999999% of the homegrown network systems out there. I only put our most sensitive and important data in the cloud as clouds are not cheap.

 

[Tomtomtom]

This is one of the problems with free (as in beer) cloud computing, and it's a market problem -- we need storage providers to be separate from service providers and to compete on reputation, but what we have are faceless vertical monopolies who have no real incentive to respond to individual customers. This is all because consumers aren't paying for anything. I'm sure this will change in time.

 

[Tomtomtom]

The clouds we host in are great. Never lost a thing. Though we only really use a cloud for stuff like mail, docs, backups and and DNS....I have never being held hostage by a cloud provider.

This sounds like the beginning of Nassim Taleb's Thanksgiving Turkey metaphor. In short: fallacy.

 

[w1z4rd]

This sounds like the beginning of Nassim Taleb's Thanksgiving Turkey metaphor. In short: fallacy.

Your response makes absolutely no sense. Please speak with some technical sense to address my post.

 

[w1z4rd]

This is one of the problems with free (as in beer) cloud computing, and it's a market problem -- we need storage providers to be separate from service providers and to compete on reputation, but what we have are faceless vertical monopolies who have no real incentive to respond to individual customers. This is all because consumers aren't paying for anything. I'm sure this will change in time.

Where you getting your free clouds?!?!!? I want that. We pay for our mail, dns, backups and docs. I know our providers do provide nerfed down services for end users for cheap to free, but we dont use any of that. We only use the enterprise level stuff. I also have offline backups of everything like any good admin should have.

Im willing to bet you have never touched real cloud technology beyond your facebook, free dropbox and gmail. You played with Amazons EC2 cloud? You lost data in it? Do you have any real experience on this at all? If so, what and with which provider?

There are no "faceless vertical monopolies", there is tons of competition with cloud solutions from many different vendors. Unless you can provide an example of such a monopoly?

 

[Tomtomtom]

Chill bru. You've decided this thread is about enterprise cloud, which it isn't.

Your fallacy (which applies both to consumer and enterprise services) is that you are using inductive reasoning to satisfy yourself there's no problem. Just because you've never lost data in the cloud, doesn't mean it won't, or can't, happen. The turkey gets more confident every day that it's going to live a long, happy life. Then one day, without warning, it's slaughtered. This is the Black Swan event in the turkey's life. You are now that turkey.

Digging your fallacious hole deeper is your apparent belief that one has to have used the tech (i.e. been the turkey) in order to be confident of its resilience. In fact we're arguably better placed to spot the problem if we're not participating in it. So you aren't just a turkey, but you think everyone should be one.

 

[w1z4rd]

Chill bru. You've decided this thread is about enterprise cloud, which it isn't.

Your fallacy (which applies both to consumer and enterprise services) is that you are using inductive reasoning to satisfy yourself there's no problem. Just because you've never lost data in the cloud, doesn't mean it won't, or can't, happen. The turkey gets more confident every day that it's going to live a long, happy life. Then one day, without warning, it's slaughtered. This is the Black Swan event in the turkey's life. You are now that turkey.

I never said data doesnt get lost, I was simply expressing my own experiences with the cloud to bedick (that I had never lost data in the cloud). Nothing is infallible (which is why I state you should always have an offline backup). I also didnt make this thread about anything. AGAIN, I was expressing my experiences, which is why I asked Bekdik what he is using the cloud for so I can give him more information. Yurre, but you really are just making up random stuff. No really you are. Theres not one post of yours in this thread where you didnt make something up.

Bekdik if you have technical questions Ill be happy to answer them. For people like tomtomtom (who is a sockpuppet) who clearly have no clue about what they are talking about Ill just ignore.

 

[bekdik]

@ghoti

Did you read any of the links in the OP?

 

[w1z4rd]

@ghoti

Did you read any of the links in the OP?

I did, bad choices and bad backup solutions will lead you to that.

Take your last link for instance, the google one. Who on earth would trust that important data to one place? I always have a backup of my cloud stuff, including every email, photo and document I have as I know anything can go wrong anywhere (for google its incredibly easy to download this information).

To the other Microsoft cloud... well they are well known for having a shaky cloud. I wouldnt trust them at all!

If you choose a bad product and you dont manage it well bad things will happen. If you are putting stuff into random clouds without using common sense then expect this type of stuff to happen. Like with any service for anything, you need to pick your providers carefully and ensure you have a half way decent backup strategy.

There are thousands of cloud services out there and like anything else, before you purchase use some common sense and investigate the reliability of what you are getting. I have a dozen servers hosted at Hetzner. What protects me if they just close down? If I had a dozen ADSL connections with an ISP, what protects me if they shut down and I lose my email address, etc etc.

As you can see, in just about every sphere if you dont choose your providers carefully and dont follow common sense data management principles things can go bad. This is not limited to the cloud but in most spheres of life.

 

[bekdik]

I did, bad choices and bad backup solutions will lead you to that.

Take your last link for instance, the google one. Who on earth would trust that important data to one place? I always have a backup of my cloud stuff, including every email, photo and document I have as I know anything can go wrong anywhere (for google its incredibly easy to download this information).

To the other Microsoft cloud... well they are well known for having a shaky cloud. I wouldnt trust them at all!

If you choose a bad product and you dont manage it well bad things will happen.

The cloud is being heavily pushed by the IT industry as the answer to anything which ever existed or didn't. There are many who will entrust their IT solution to a cloud solution and how would one determine whether it is 'shaky' or not?

Cloud solutions offer much more than email and data and some of the things offered are critical to the running of a business; both legally and financially.

The fact that you have not (yet) encountered a problem doesn't prove too much.

As a matter of interest, how do you test your IT Disaster Recovery plan?

 

[w1z4rd]

The cloud is being heavily pushed by the IT industry as the answer to anything which ever existed or didn't. There are many who will entrust their IT solution to a cloud solution and how would one determine whether it is 'shaky' or not?

Google the cloud you are going to be investing all your data with?

Let me pull this out of the cloud to show you how common sense should be applied no matter if its a cloud or not. Lets take your sentence and use it with the motor industry:

The motor industry is really pushing cars as the answer for transportation. How do you know that the car you are buying is the best car for your needs?

Now if you can research skills for when purchasing a car, why cant you do the same when deciding what cloud services suite your company needs?

Cloud solutions offer much more than email and data and some of the things offered are critical to the running of a business; both legally and financially.

Yup, amazing.

The fact that you have not (yet) encountered a problem doesn't prove too much.

It proves exactly what it was meant to prove, that I have not lost any data in a cloud. The sentence was that simple.

As a matter of interest, how do you test your IT Disaster Recovery plan?

It depends on what you are recovering. We use several cloud services and it would depend on what you have in the cloud and what you are using it for. For instance, recovering DNS would be a lot different to recovering backups. Recovering a database may be different to recovering documents, and so on.