Camera advice

A crap load probably - the camera does a better job giving me clean jpgs than I can easily deliver using raw files.

Can you check? You're retaining a hell of a lot of detail while removing noise to a better extent than I can do with a raw file at ISO 12,800 from a 5Dm3. I'm curious as to what you've got the camera set to. Conversely, I can do a far better job cleaning up a raw file in post than my 600D can do to a JPEG, the camera softens the heck out of everything at the expense of any sort of detail.
 
Make SONY
Model DSLR-A700
Exposure 0.6
Aperture 5
Focal Length 45.0 mm
ISO Speed 3200
Flash Off, Did not fire

29q0bbq.jpg



ISO Speed 2000
2s1n70i.jpg



ISO Speed 1250
w1a9s0.jpg




ISO Speed 640
29w7szq.jpg



ISO Speed 400
5ezdx4.jpg
 
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I suppose I should actually contribute :p How about the D610? It's going to offer several stops better high ISO performance than what you have, as well as double the resolution, much better dynamic range, better image quality... And it can be yours for around R25k. I may have missed it, but do you need a lens as well? If so, the D7100 with 18-140 lens can be had for under R20k and will fit about halfway between what you have and the D610.
 
While we're talking older bodies, if you're not opposed to buying 2nd hand, you can get a D700 and probably a second D700 for backup for that kind of money. I'm still in awe of that camera's low-light capabilities.
 
Anyone tried the Noise Ninja Photoshop plug-in?

Not in Photoshop but I have the Aperture plugin and the stand-alone tool (I think you get that with the plugin, but I can't remember). It's very good, but I use it seldom because Aperture does a good enough job 99.99% of the time.
 
Can you check? You're retaining a hell of a lot of detail while removing noise to a better extent than I can do with a raw file at ISO 12,800 from a 5Dm3. I'm curious as to what you've got the camera set to. Conversely, I can do a far better job cleaning up a raw file in post than my 600D can do to a JPEG, the camera softens the heck out of everything at the expense of any sort of detail.
High ISO speed NR and Auto Lighting Optimiser are both set to High.
 
Marine1: Those pictures you posted do not look too bad below ISO2000. You could help matters a bit by getting a fast prime to keep your photos in this range. You could also reset your camera back to default settings in case something has crept in here, although it is unlikely that this will make a big difference.

It does sound like you have the new camera itch and the above advise will probably not scratch it properly. There is a ranking of cameras by the ISO at which they still take clean images at http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Ratings/Sports. Note that this is for noise in the RAW files, and has nothing to do with how the final jpg images come out. It is interesting to note that the EOS 6D is one stop better than the cheap D3300, and the D610 is 1.5 stops better. It is up to you to decide if this improvement is worth the extra money based on your anticipated usage scenarios.

(Disclaimer - lots of people think that the rankings on the quoted site are a load of BS when it comes to actual real world stuff).
 
Thanks guys really appreciate the expert advice

Guess what I want is great quality without flash at low light.

Thats my main focus (excuse pun)
In that case a fast lens with IS or a steady hand will also help - it all depends on what you're shooting.
 
Hmmm. Characterising low-light performance is actually much harder than it might appear.

The DxO rankings are quite good given the conditions under which they test. IIRC, the sports score is just the maximum (interpolated) ISO at which a sensor produces an image at a given Signal-to-Noise Ratio (SNR). Keep in mind that DxO scores are (still?) comparing images downsampled to 8 MP, which they use as their representative "print size". This is a much better idea than it sounds at first, because it allows you to compare full-frame and APS-C sensors in a meaningful way.

Here are my tips:
1. Anything can look good at web-sized images, even ISO 256000
2. Do not pixel-peep (at full sensor resolution) when doing sensor noise comparisons
3. Resize all images to the same resolution before comparing them (this is the "print size" normalization that DxO does). This could mean scaling all images down to "print size", or scaling all images down to the size of lowest-resolution sensor in your comparison.

If you follow those tips, then a full-frame sensor will give you roughly 1 stop better performance (i.e., apparent noise in print size image at ISO 6400 on FF will look the same as ISO 3200 on APS-C). This is because of the larger sensor in the FF camera capturing more photons in the same amount of time (which reduces the "photon shot noise" --- a physical phenomenon that cannot be circumvented). The sensor surface area ratio (FF area / APS-C area) about 2.2, which is neat because that is roughly equal to the 1 stop improvement we see.

With a modern Sony/Nikon sensor the actual pixel count does not harm noise performance, i.e., a 16 MP sensor and a 24 MP sensor will produce comparable noise at print size. This is not necessarily true for many other sensors, so check.

There are other subtle issues too. For example, an FF sensor at 24 MP (D610) will still have larger photosites (pixels) than a 24 MP APS-C sensor (D7100). This impacts the number of photoelectrons that can be stored per pixel, i.e., the larger pixel will be less prone to saturation (overexposure). In the field, this means the FF sensor is better at handling highlights without clipping.

If you want to form your own (real-world) opinion, download the test shots on dpreview (they usually have the raw files available for download). Develop them with NR as you normally would, but be sure to compare them at your desired print size equivalent (which might be roughly A4 size, for example, meaning 8 MP). If you use the dpreview tool to compare studio shots, keep in mind that you are pixel peeping, i.e., a lower resolution sensor will inherently appear to have less noise, but it will also have less detail --- this makes it hard to compare low-light performance objectively because you are conflating two different aspects that react differently to NR algorithms.
 
If you want to follow the suggestion of fvdbergh to download RAW files then a couple more sites that also tend to have these available are http://www.photographyblog.com/reviews/ and http://www.imaging-resource.com/MFR1.HTM. The developers of the dcraw software to decode RAW files tend to use these two sites for getting sample files. There are some good free RAW editors out there, including http://www.rawtherapee.com/.

If the camera file is not supported yet then you can convert it into DNG format first using the Adobe converter, http://helpx.adobe.com/photoshop/digital-negative.html#downloads, and then all should be well. Lack of support can range from funky colours to refusal to open the file at all.

This is an interesting process. The comparison pictures for cameras can vary between different review sites. It looks like different settings are often used. Maybe it has to do with the click-through adverts on the sites and which direction they are trying to steer you in. The RAW files are inevitably fixed and give you an unbiased impression of what the cameras deliver.
 
Looking for a great low light camera.
Was looking at the Sony A77 as it's got awesome low light capabilities but also got burned with my Sony alpha a700. Lots of noise.
What nikon is there that's great in low light ?
Thanks

2 cents worth

When i was researching low light capabilities, i ended up looking at cameras people use for astrophotography.
I am not talking scope mounts , but the cameras used for star fields and milky way type shots.
Obviously low noise, and very good low light performance is required.

Check the list of cameras in point 1
http://www.lonelyspeck.com/beginner-astrophotography-kit/

Canon has some very good cameras as well as a dedicated enthusiasts "astro" camera the 60Da.

Nikon it seems doesn't do to well in that range due to the noise processing method used in camera, although the 5300, 7100 and 610 all stand out as very good in the low light capability.
D7100 :
http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Nikon_D7100/
http://www.davidkingham.com/blog/2013/5/nikon-d7100-cropped-sensor-for-night-photography
http://forum.nikonrumors.com/discussion/1074/nikon-d7100-milky-way-time-lapse/p1

Sony really seem to capture low light performance in their mirrorless range - sensor info on bottom of each page
Sony Alpha A6000
http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Sony_Alpha_A6000/
Sony Alpha A7
http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Sony_Alpha_A7/
High end model Sony a7S
http://petapixel.com/2014/07/30/sony-a7s-astrophotography-review/
 
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