can someone explain the uncapped cost for the ISP

enx

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Can someone with a decent amount of knowledge and understanding of the ISP business explain to me how Mweb (or one of the other isps) are able to offer uncapped and still turn a profit. I honestly am not clear on the business model, or why mweb decided to do it. Are they really relying on low usage guys to switch to pricey uncapped and pay 500 per month for 4gb? And most importantly - how will this drive down telkom's prices (is it called last mile, or something)?

A 500 rand 4mb account can run up hundreds of gigs, and I am sure that they know that the majority of early adopters of these accounts would do just that.

What is Mweb's, or any ISP's cost per gig, and is there some sort of different deal that they have, because I know that wholesale internet prices arent 50 cent per gig, which is what some of these "ask the guy who downloads a terrabyte every month" bros are gonna be paying. Is Naspers subsidizing this or is it a diabolically clever pyramid usage scheme? :)

I'm kind of a noob and not in the internet busines at all so sorry about any naive stuff - it's also really late...so I'm not as eloquent. Oh, and please, all you guys that always post but never say anything, don't troll the topic, no need for 'funny' one liners.

thanks all... 'night...
 
can i say this - why would you expect to get an answer? unless you are asking an ISP that is listed on the JSE.
 
It works on the assumption that not everyone is a continuous downloader. This is a fair assumption. Most people are not geeks!
Understanding contention ratios.
In addition, there are a list of disclaimers to the unlimited deal, and it may be "shaped" at any time.

As for what the real costs are, I don't know. It's complicated and depends on how much bandwidth you buy, and for how long. M-Web is a Tier-1 ISP, able to secure high-volume contract thanks to it's huge install base.
 
In South Africa we have 2 ISP types.

The first type is a reseller, which buys bandwidth per gig from one of the bigger guys (like Telkom or IS). They basically just buy the gigs in a volume at a discount and then resell it to the public for a higher price.

The second type is the real ISP who buys a big pipe in mbps and then either create a per gig charge (which they have to manage very carefully) or sell as unlimited where each user will be allocate a portion of the pipe. Now this pipe is very expensive which is where contention ratios come in. You sell the same piece of the pipe to 20 or 30 users, to make it profitable and then have to hope that only one of them at a time will use it. If more than one is using it simultaneously then each will only get a portion of the speed and not the full speed.

This is the reason Afrihost had to stop the big downloaders from using their connection 24/7. This 5% were ruining the experience for the other users.

In MWEBs case I think they have a big pipe expecting a lot of users. Currently they allow the big downloaders, as they are not affecting the rest of the users, but as the user base expands, this pipe will be filling up and they will have the same problem as Afrihost.

What these uncapped ISPs can do, is to shape the traffic, meaning limiting the rate of the high volume traffic.

I hope this helps.
 
In MWEBs case I think they have a big pipe expecting a lot of users. Currently they allow the big downloaders, as they are not affecting the rest of the users, but as the user base expands, this pipe will be filling up and they will have the same problem as Afrihost.

Is this a fact or is it something you sucked out your bung hole?
 
In MWEBs case I think they have a big pipe expecting a lot of users. Currently they allow the big downloaders, as they are not affecting the rest of the users, but as the user base expands, this pipe will be filling up and they will have the same problem as Afrihost.

Is this a fact or is it something you sucked out your bung hole?

If its not true they will be throwing a lot of money away each month, which granted, they might be choosing to do.

They are doing a loss leader.

I just want to point out i love mweb for doing what they are doing, its changing everything.
 
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Cool, thanks - I didn't understand that first JSE comment... but anyway - thanks for the helpful comments synae and zamicro.

I just don't understand that "last mile" thing - I know that the bandwidth becomes cheaper with the SAT3, but because of the local loop, telkom is the only one with the lines to the actual consumer. Just dont know how this factors into the price... This is where my stupid "cost per gig" comment comes from.
 
OK guys... there seems to be a lto of misunderstanding here and so this might help break things down more clearly... it's not comprehensive and can be improved upon, and I'm likely to be shot by the industry for doing it... although I don't know why.
IMPORTANT NOTE: I am not writing this on behalf of my company Imagine.co.za - This is my own personal work that was done as a consultant.

Very roughly with comments the SA internet works like this:

- Customer ->
Line to the exchange (only 11% of SA homes have an active phone line to the home) -> DSLAM -> ESR
(This is where the line speed is generally determined as the line to the house is gerneally copper here. Also, it's worth noting that this is also where Telkom remotely setup your line speed. There is zero cost for them running a 384k-24Mbit line as it's purely based on ports to the exchange and decent cabling to the IPC cloud (Fibre). Which isn't always the case unfortunately.)
Telkom are the only people allowed to do this although there are agreements with Neotel (I believe but not researched).

(in SA) IPC cloud (owned by Telkom) ->
Other countries use more advanced technology... this is really quite an old system. e.g. BitStreaming.
Telkom is the only company allowed to sell IPC or end-custoemr ADSL sevice.. therefore this is extrememly expensive as there is no competition. From R10k to R1.5k per 1Mbps dependant on how much you buy... e.g. R1.5k is for 2Gbps - R3m per month.

Local transit
SAIX or IS are the big guys here. SAIX for ADSL customer (although not so much now MWeb took away 150k) and IS for content (although Vodacom are trying to bribe the banks etc to move). They have a peering agreement which mean that they will allow other users to tranfer through each other's networks free of charge... everyone else they charge for the priviledge of accessing their networks. This strangle-hold is something that MWeb, Vodacom and WebAfrica etcetc... and us... are trying to get rid of.
Local bandwidth is now more expensive than international ebcause of it.

International Bandwidth.
Peering agreemenst internationally are already in place as SA is a very small player globally and so we can't use our over-charging for that. In fact, SEACOM and SAT-3 pay London landing fees, as you'd expect... like with most things, unless you have are similar sizes or have somethign to offer then teh largest charges you... but nowhere near as much as here in SA.
Currently, ignoring satelitte, you can do via SAT-3/SAFE (20Gbps) or SEACOM (1.3Tbps)... The next 2-3 years will see another 3 cables coming down giving SA over 20Tbps of bandwidth. (please correct me on these figures as I don't have them to hand and so this is from memory.)
- You can 'buy' bandwidth on SEACOM but only in STM-1 chunks of 155Mbps. For roughly R12m - but you own it for the life of the cable. You then need to spend another R3-5m on setup.
- Most people rent and price range from R10k to R3.5k per Mbps.

You then need the infrastructure in your office to manage the IPC and routing of the data requests and systems for interconnect/peering.

Pricing and understanding how to give someone great internet access.
- Most countries usage stats are a lot less than SA but that's based on the fact that you have very low caps (avg 2.6GB).
- Average usage of a capped account is between 60-70%
- We've yet to see what the average uncapped account uses as so few people previously had them. (in the UK it averaged 12GB per month from memory despite being uncapped and only R120 per month for all costs - but this is because well over 90% of people have a phone line and ~90% have ADSL/broadband and so you have a huge economy of scale)
- SA has 11% fixed phone line density and, again from memory 4% ADSL

An uncapped service is all about how many time can you sell the same line.
e.g. for a medium Tier 2 ISP renting 10-100Mbps of bandwidth from a Tier 1 in this country the average price of Telkom IPC, local and international traffic for 1Mpbs could be:
R 4k (IPC)
R 6k (local)
R 5k (international)
R negligable (set up and infrastructure)

R15k per 1Mbps
We are lucky on our economies of scale and can buy it for less.

Therefore a 1:1 contended 4Mbps ADSL line would cost R60k per month!

Obviously the Tier 1 providers can get better pricing and if you're SAIX or IS then you don't need to pay for local transit. So it's a huge amount cheaper.... if you buy international and not rent it then a loan payment over 20 years per 1Mbps is only R350 per month. But even they still ahve to pay the IPC costs.

Tier 1 rough costing per 1Mbps could be:
R 2k (IPC)
R 500 (local)
R 350 (international)
R 1k (set up and network infrastructure - they lay and manage cable etc - this is a very conservative value based on the inefficiencies i've modelling in SA)

R4k per 1Mpbs

Therefore a 1:1 4Mbps line is roughly R16k pm

And we're all selling them at R499pm


Points to take away
- So you can see that firstly you have to cram a lot of people down a 1Mbps hole to make it worth it. People who download 24/7 are essentially causing massive costs.
- For most people normal internet users, the faster the line the more people you can cram down the hole because everything downloads quicker and so they are 'using' the internet a lot less frequently.
- The reason there have been so many resellers 'over-branding' a service that they essentially just offer customer service on. These guys, like the company I am working with are just Tier 2 providers and 'rent' access from teh larger companies. MWeb's recent change is a result of changing from renting to buying.. eg. Tier 1.

South Africa's issue is that the vast majority of people have a 384k line and download speed is very slow so a LOT of people are always 'using' the internet. Therefore contension ratios have to be a LOT less for the least profitable line speed.... which doesn't make economic sense.

The more people we can get on 4M+ the more likely the 50:1+ contention ratios can be maintained and actually give every 100% line-speed service all the time.

The Telkom line installation cost, rental, bad service and IPC prices make it very hard to get more peopl online and so the economy of scale will not be here until there are over 20 million people with 4-24Mbps ADSL lines.


There's a bit more too it but the basics are there... and so you can see why people believe that the MWeb model is not sustainable. However they have opened a can of worms that the i don't think even they understood but is seeing a huge upscaling of the South African intenretn market... and one for the better that i think will be made sustainable by bulk and improved line speed.

It's also why, in the interim, there are Acceptable usage policies and shaping as most companies ony have 1-5GB of SEACOM bandwith.

Things will get better but slowly... all eyes are now on Telkom to lower their prices to get more people online. Unfortuantely, what's more likely is that they will use more of our TAX and government borrowed cash to release their own uncapped ADSL product in compeition. The biggest problem with this country is lack of fixed lines and infrstructure... Telkom have forgotten this in their desperation to keep shareholders happy... and the government and ICASA don't seem to be reminding them.

If they made ADSL 'ADSL' by not limiting line speed and creating low single charges 'across the board' then this would seriously allow things to improve. i.e. You get a 'best case' line speed which could be 10Mbps or 1Mbps, dependant on your exchange distance but you pay Telkom the same price. Doesn't sound fair but if the entire country can afford to get a phone line then it will work out quickly as Telkom can distribute costs, improve the service for the rural areas and concentrate on their network and not their 'sales'... a very nice though but I'm not sure how likely it will be.

Plus don't even start me on Bitstreaming , which I've heard will be launched here in August 2010 which should see base costs drop more (maybe!).... again owned and singularly provided by Telkom.

(sorry for the errors and 'rough' facts in this as it was rushed by me and off the top of my head. It should give everyone a good idea that this industry is run on good accounts and streamlining as much as it is on good bandwidth... I think that's the realisation that's happenin at the minute.)
 
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Thank you Peter, this is a really great primer, worth a sticky. I really needed to fill in the gaps in my understanding of it all. A breath of fresh air in between all the complaining that this forum attracts.

thanks again,
 
You're welcome enx,

I'm really wanting to take the hidden facts out of this market and am keen that others do too. hence my increased presence on the MyBB boards. What better space to do it than a tech forum.

Now that the uncapped 'seal has been broken' the internet is now a real concept in South Africa and it needs to be pushed forward. There will be teething issues and it interests me to see wveryone saying how much better MWeb are to the two different IS resellers... however, again i think that the two IS products and the resellers need to be clearly separated as I feel that the IS Uncapped Basic (not the IS uncapper per GB) is performing the same, and will ultimately be better, than the MWeb uncapped.

We need more clarity from IS about it as we haven't not seen any throtting after too much usage, but there have been issues over the last day or so with speeds that had nothing to do with it... so time will tell.

Definitely PR releases, like the recent MWeb one, are just that. Self promotion. So with IS hiding behind lots of resellers there is no clear voices to shout them up on this new product. Hence my call for clarity. I feel that the days of the great old reseller brand names are fading and that is fantastic. IS, MWeb, WA, Vodacom, (I know there are others) are Tier 1 and buy and own significant bandwidth... The rest of us are Tier 2 and 3 and so we should all be now looking at services and customer service as the things that differentiate us.... or die.

Talking of which, I should be spending more time updating our customer support scripts than this thread! ;)
 
The key to the uncapped product (in SA at least) ... is successfully getting big business customers.

These are guys are the TOP40 of the JSE, multi nationals who will demand big pipes during the day and leave them completely idle at night.

I believe this is where IS started off their uncapped after hours account. Basically you have a big pipe which is utilised a lot during office hours and left completely idle at night. If you business model is right, this should already be profitable. What follows then is why not sell the unused pipe at night at a "discounted rate" and make even more money.

The consumer uncapped account is along the same basis, most people should be at work during office hours and thus they won't be affecting the Big Boys really paying for the pipe. After hours its a free for all for the small guys and everyone is happy.

The problem comes when these myBB smart @$$ queue ***** but all day and all night long, which is what the MWEB shaping will hopefully over come.
 
Although businesses do require large amounts of bandwidth, they do cover the costs themselves and they use their own fibre connections directly to the ISP. They do not use ADSL or touch the IPC cloud at all.

The IS Express+/After Hours accounts were a 'loop hole' to allow people to benefit from the huge amount of unused IPC out of hours. It's the IPC (ADSL access) that costs and has to be used as much as possible to maximise profits on it.

It's very unlikely a company would buy more expensive IPC to allow people to download at night when their bandwidth is already paid for. It's not cost effective at the price it is sold at... see what I mean?
 
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I would think that the key is to get the "mom's and pop's" onto uncapped. Mweb have a big advantage of the AH's and other players because they have so many low usage users to subsidise their uncapped users. IMO, it's only a matter of time before they also hit the wall like AH did and run into contention issues. I doubt they are going to keep throwing money at the situation. Because their pricing is already high (R150 for 1GB), I think that they believe that can convert those users onto a R219 uncapped without much hassle which will just eek some more money out of them and help to widen the pipe.
 
Although businesses do require large amounts of bandwidth, they do cover the costs themselves and they use their own fibre connections directly to the ISP. They do not use ADSL or touch the IPC cloud at all.

Should ISP's not be focusing then on fibre lines to large complexes etc?
 
The great thing for MWeb is that all the low capped users below who are staying on capped are just transferred to their new Tier 1 network. Because of the comparitively very low usage they can pretty mauch 'forget them' and class them as pure profit on their infrastructure costs as they will never notice them in comparison to the uncapped offerings.

You are right though, the question is how many people until they reach saturation or have they built a sustainable network that can be scaled accordingly.
4x STM-4's - gives you a 1.24Gbit international line and would cost roughly R90m before you consider any of the other local, setup and IPC costs.
On a 50:1 contention then you could put 15,500 4MB ADSL users.

As they already had 150,000 ADSL users before the uncapped offering you'd think their network would initially be a minimum of 2-3GBit... but you never know. They could have bought just 1Gbit or 10Gbit. That will be the bit that decides on if they are good or bad... and alo the fact they are now buying SAT-3 for their redundancy... although how much is yet to be seen/known.

It's just another reason that we chose the IS Uncapped Basic product to resell. IS are huge, they are setup and have been doing this a very long time. The odds are completley in their favour that they will come out with the better service...
 
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Should ISP's not be focusing then on fibre lines to large complexes etc?

Yes... if the ISP have a decent network infrastructure and are not just reselling another company's product then they can do this although the prices are quite high.

For example, we run many Private Leased Circuits / Leased Lines / Diginet / Neolink / MetroNet / Dark Fibre connections...
they are all pretty much the same but with different names, dependent on brand and medium etc.

It just requires a decent amount of IT knowledge, decent pricing and most importantly... your own network infrastructure to do it. You'd be surprised some of the ADSL resellers who do not have these things...
 
there are more than two tiers of isp, maybe this will help, http://www.ispmap.org.za/ ,even if its a bit out of dat

Yeah - Sorry for never mentioning anything other than Tier 1 & 2 but there's only so much I can cram in to all of this stuff before people fall off their chairs with boredom.

Feel free to ask a lot more though asif i can't answer it then out tech guys very liekly can and if it goes too far then I can ask one of the ISPA members to help out as it's a very helpful and informative group.
 
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