CAP usage

Sproggit

Active Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
49
Like 90% of the people out there (well perhaps youtube is used by 50% due to high bandwith requirements i.e. high costs) - you just CANNOT do youtube "lekker" on 384Kbps :(

Which raises another question:
Would you use youtube more if it could be made "lekker" at 384Kbps (and I assure you, it can) ?
 

morkhans

A MyBroadband
Super Moderator
Joined
Jun 22, 2007
Messages
10,896
As part of more than academic research...

1) Would you prefer higher speed if it meant that your traffic would have to go through a caching proxy?
2) Would you be willing to use a caching proxy if it meant a reduced cap usage, even though this would decrease privacy?
3) Would you be OK with p2p traffic caching, even though all of your content may not be unrestricted if it resulted in either of the above?


The Sproggg

1) Would you prefer higher speed if it meant that your traffic would have to go through a caching proxy?
I think Cell C is pretty quick already, so speed isn't an attractive offering.

2) Would you be willing to use a caching proxy if it meant a reduced cap usage, even though this would decrease privacy?
Reduced cap mmm maybe. The problem you do sometimes have with transparent proxies is that many of the file hosting sites won't let you download because "someone else with your IP is already downloading".

3) Would you be OK with p2p traffic caching, even though all of your content may not be unrestricted if it resulted in either of the above?
What do you mean by unrestricted?

I don't mind caching and I understand the befits but as a client
1) I don't want to "know" my data is being cached. If file hosting sites give me grief then I don't want it.
2) I don't want it slowing my connection down. An overloaded proxy is no fun.
3) I don't want it messing with my connection. Sometimes proxies and firewalls mess with things like TCP time-outs, NAT etc. which causes pain.

Also if you consider the costs of running such large proxies capable of caching dynamic content and handling huge numbers of clients and the potential issues I've mentioned would it not be better to just buy more cheap international bandwidth?
 

Sproggit

Active Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
49
morkhans
Excellent! Some well reasoned responses at last!

I think Cell C is pretty quick already, so speed isn't an attractive offering.
Fair enough, but I promise you, maxing out your last mile speed will make your eyes pop :)

Reduced cap mmm maybe. The problem you do sometimes have with transparent proxies is that many of the file hosting sites won't let you download because "someone else with your IP is already downloading".
Nope, thats some ancient solutions like the EOL Netcache's still used by Telskum (and badly implemented solutions by other carriers that shall remain unnamed). The solution I am looking at will preserve the client IP address - remember that using the normal CellC APN might mean you are NATted right now, so the problem would already exist due to infrastructure unrelated to caching.

What do you mean by unrestricted?
Not illegal. Carriers in general don't give a rat's a$$ about content, but if someone subpoena's logs, then what?

I don't mind caching and I understand the befits but as a client
1) I don't want to "know" my data is being cached. If file hosting sites give me grief then I don't want it.
2) I don't want it slowing my connection down. An overloaded proxy is no fun.
3) I don't want it messing with my connection. Sometimes proxies and firewalls mess with things like TCP time-outs, NAT etc. which causes pain.
1) Fair enough, how about 2 choices, transparent and no grief, and settable, with minimal grief (can always include X-Forwarded-for headers for more well-behaved sites), with different advantages?
2) NEVER. An overloaded proxy will be bypassed, no compromises.
3) If you only knew how much things like TCP parameters are messed with at carriers.... :) Nothing should get broken (further than it already is).

Also if you consider the costs of running such large proxies capable of caching dynamic content and handling huge numbers of clients and the potential issues I've mentioned would it not be better to just buy more cheap international bandwidth?
International bandwidth may not be quite as cheap as you think, and large proxies not as expensive ...

Thanks again for the decent feedback.

The Sproggg
 

jem

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2008
Messages
443
ibursts proxy causes issues on a regular basis. KISS - keep it simple stupid.

The network is supposed to be 22-42Mb/s, if it was actually acheiving anywhere near that no-one would care about last mile caching. ISP's trying to be clever to save a buck on bandwith just cause problems, focus on delivering the goods consistently without any kind of shortcuts or tricks. Content changes so quickly these days anyway.
 

|tera|

Master of Messengers
Joined
Mar 31, 2006
Messages
25,906
No proxy. Period.

We've had it on SAIX for years and it sucks. Don't try and spoil our connections on CellC with your "l337 revolutionary caching software"
 

Sproggit

Active Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
49
ibursts proxy causes issues on a regular basis. KISS - keep it simple stupid.

The network is supposed to be 22-42Mb/s, if it was actually acheiving anywhere near that no-one would care about last mile caching. ISP's trying to be clever to save a buck on bandwith just cause problems, focus on delivering the goods consistently without any kind of shortcuts or tricks. Content changes so quickly these days anyway.

Dude, iBurst use modified squid proxies, and while it's not my place to comment on other people's implementations the fact that you know about their transparent solution (nevermind the fact that you hate it) tells me all I need to know...

PS:
Do you have ANY idea how much youtube content is repeat downloads?
 

Sproggit

Active Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
49
No proxy. Period.

We've had it on SAIX for years and it sucks. Don't try and spoil our connections on CellC with your "l337 revolutionary caching software"

Cool, thanks for the reply.
The tone of the reply (although sadly not the content) is invaluable.
PS:
How do you feel about CDN?
 

jem

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2008
Messages
443
I'm not denying that a cache system can work, and yes iburst's is a crap@ss squid setup.

I just deny that cellc would get one right without causing a problem somewhere else. They have enough stuff to sort out before noodling with damn cache servers.
 

jem

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2008
Messages
443
IMHO CDN is fine, thats not a caching system that affects other systems. It's a very necessary system for high volume streaming and service levels on big sites.

It's not really a cache system at all - it's all in the name CONTENT delivery network.
 

Sproggit

Active Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
49
I'm not denying that a cache system can work, and yes iburst's is a crap@ss squid setup.

I just deny that cellc would get one right without causing a problem somewhere else. They have enough stuff to sort out before noodling with damn cache servers.

Well, that depends on what's happening in the core (and who is implementing WHAT as a caching solution). I admit the other stuff needs sorting out, but theres not necessarily any causal relationship.
 

Sproggit

Active Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
49
IMHO CDN is fine, thats not a caching system that affects other systems. It's a very necessary system for high volume streaming and service levels on big sites.

It's not really a cache system at all - it's all in the name CONTENT delivery network.

Never said it was a caching solution, just curious as to how you feel about the concept.
However in a strictly pragmatic sense, the concept of content being moved closer / faster to the user that is requesting it is exactly what a proper caching solution should do... Think about it.
 

jem

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2008
Messages
443
yes, but the one works on an interference principle the other does not. I would be quite happy if cellc or some other co. setup a local youtube CDN for example.

It would be kind of irrelevant though seeing as most cell c users who actually get good speed can stream international and there is no differentiation between local and international bandwith. So if speed is your selling point try again. Those that get crap signal and speeds a local service would be irrelevant seeing as it would not make a difference to their speeds anyway and I cant see anyone realistically holding onto a non-working connection for only youtube and switching all the time between that and a seperate connection to actually browse.
 

Sproggit

Active Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
49
yes, but the one works on an interference principle the other does not. I would be quite happy if cellc or some other co. setup a local youtube CDN for example.

It would be kind of irrelevant though seeing as most cell c users who actually get good speed can stream international and there is no differentiation between local and international bandwith. So if speed is your selling point try again. Those that get crap signal and speeds a local service would be irrelevant seeing as it would not make a difference to their speeds anyway and I cant see anyone realistically holding onto a non-working connection for only youtube and switching all the time between that and a seperate connection to actually browse.

OK, so:
a) You would be fine if youtube content was actually held at CellC's data centre after the first download, but would prefer a dns and uri redirect to simply transparent access
b) You believe that CellC has n amount of subscribers times average subscriber connection speed of WAN bandwidth on tap (at no extra bursting cost).
c) You believe that a caching connection would involve something else 'not-working' and if this was true that the user would have to do the switching

Have I got that right?
 

jem

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2008
Messages
443
OK, so:
a) You would be fine if youtube content was actually held at CellC's data centre after the first download, but would prefer a dns and uri redirect to simply transparent access

You're mixing a CDN and a cache.
Dont care where a CDN is held, whether it's cellc or mweb or whoever - it's irrelevant. The point of a CDN is to provide a speed benefit by distributing load across many servers, ideally with more local server. Subscribers who can can stream internationally from youtube's existing CDN's have no incentive since there is no cap exclusion.

Why would anyone provide a cap benefit while reaping the OOB revenue costs.

The CDN - for the youtube example - would actually be managed by youtube's heartbeat and direction servers with cellc (or whoever) being added as a CDN and mirroring. There would be no dns URI redirections as such, in almost all video CDN's only the video is streamed from the CDN not the page content. Page content is sent from seperate servers on a different CDN.

b) You believe that CellC has n amount of subscribers times average subscriber connection speed of WAN bandwidth on tap (at no extra bursting cost).

They have it now and will have it in future, with WACS et al coming online I very much doubt this is an issue. In either way, as far as a CDN goes it's not as if it's cost effective (OOB) for anyone to stream to the degree that it would affect the network so I fail to see this argument point. Split the total youtube or whichever site you want's bandwith consumed by the number of subscribers.

Cell C and other mobile companies charge a heckuva lot more for OOB than it costs them to provision WAN.

I admit that caching would benefit the bottom line of the income statement of the provisioning company, my issue with it is the detrimental effects of caches if they are not implemented flawlessly and without affecting other services. If a cache is implemented the option should be available to choose to be on a non-cached APN.

c) You believe that a caching connection would involve something else 'not-working' and if this was true that the user would have to do the switching

Have I got that right?

No. I'm saying that IF through some magical way the CDN / Caching actually did improve the speed to a few sites for people with bad speed it would not keep them on cell c (or whoever). IF they did get a speed benefit from the caching I can't see anyone holding onto their connection just for youtube (or whatever) and switching physical connections to browse and get email. I.e. from cell c to whatever.

SUMMARY:
I'm saying that for people who
a) do not have a problem with streaming a local CDN is irrelevant since there is no bandwith cost benefit for users.
b) have no speed (i.e. bad signal etc) the local CDN would not benefit them anyway and neither would caching - slow is slow.
c) have speed, the above (b) is a non-entity and most people would likely prefer to wait 200ms longer for a page and not have issues with caching systems being flaky or interfering.

Enough, I think my opinion has been laid out and this is turning circles and this is beginning to feel like a trollfest. I'm done unless there is actually something new to comment on.

Your question was if a caching system would be well received - I doubt it.

A CDN would be potentially beneficial, but since there is no local vs. international differentiation it is a question of speed benefit and if the mirroring is efficient.

A cache intercepts and potentially interferes. A CDN does not.

It's all a moot point anyway since it's doubtful customers would have any say in the implementation of a cache anyway. Likely the first we would hear is when things stop working and eventually someone admits to the issue.
 

Sproggit

Active Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
49
Cool, thanks for your input.
:)
You are absolutely right, customers should never notice unless something goes wrong, and a solution should be designed so that the only effect of cache failure is that content is retrieved from origin servers.
I won't debate the speed issue, since it I don't feel it's the only / most important factor in any case. ( However, if we all had the option of a CellC parent proxy, and we had unmetered ICP traffic between users, obviously the benefits - to users - would be significant...)

Once again, well reasoned debate is exactly what I was hoping for, I appreciate it.

The Sproggg
 
Top