Cape Town Opera rejects Tutu's comments

zaktoo said:
Jirre, you're having a hard time getting your head around this concept. It's a democratic right to not want change, it's a democratic right to feel that there's nothing worth voting for, it's a democratic right to do abso-****ing-lutely nothing at all during an election.
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that is democratically stupid :)
 
zaktoo said:
Jirre, you're having a hard time getting your head around this concept. It's a democratic right to not want change, it's a democratic right to feel that there's nothing worth voting for, it's a democratic right to do abso-****ing-lutely nothing at all during an election.
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That was what the struggle was for after all....to not vote :erm:
 
marine1 said:
I understand your "democratic right" concept ;)
And by exercising these rights soon we won't have any rights at all
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Is that the fault of voters (or non-voters, as the case may be) or political parties for offering no worthy options?
 
marine1 said:
Funny I don't see him speaking out about Iran wanting to destroy Israel, don't see him speaking out about suicide bombers.
Doesn't surprise me at the comments here, most are anti Israel.
Maybe Tutu should worry about the issues here?
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I am sure that if you asked Arch about these things he would be as vehemently against them as he is against the state that israel is in.
 
zaktoo said:
Is that the fault of voters (or non-voters, as the case may be) or political parties for offering no worthy options?
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Ah the excuse for former ANC comrades who while they can no longer vote for their old flame still can't bring themselves to vote against the ANC.....

Anybody who thinks a political party is "worthy" needs to catch a wake up from their naive idealism. Democracy is about electing the lesser of two or more evils that are politicians.

Anybody who thinks there is no party better than the corrupt buffoons currently in power is a simpleton.
 
Alan said:
Ah the excuse for former ANC comrades who while they can no longer vote for their old flame still can't bring themselves to vote against the ANC.....

Anybody who thinks a political party is "worthy" needs to catch a wake up from their naive idealism. Democracy is about electing the lesser of two or more evils that are politicians.

Anybody who thinks there is no party better than the corrupt buffoons currently in power is a simpleton.
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Firstly, it's not a question of subjectively better than the status quo, and secondly, if the parties do not offer a viable alternative they are no more deserving of your vote than the ruling party. But we've drifted from the argument of whether a non-vote is the same as a vote for the ANC. It is demonstrably, quantitatively and empirically not.
 
zaktoo said:
Firstly, it's not a question of subjectively better than the status quo, and secondly, if the parties do not offer a viable alternative they are no more deserving of your vote than the ruling party. But we've drifted from the argument of whether a non-vote is the same as a vote for the ANC. It is demonstrably, quantitatively and empirically not.
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They aren't viable because people like Tutu won't vote for them. Like I said it's a cop out. It keeps the old comrades in power without the guilt of having voted directly for them.

Both a ANC vote and a non vote result in the same conclusion, that is the ANC staying in power. So it's ultimately the same thing
 
Alan said:
They aren't viable because people like Tutu won't vote for them. Like I said it's a cop out. It keeps the old comrades in power without the guilt of having voted directly for them.

Both a ANC vote and a non vote result in the same conclusion, that is the ANC staying in power. So it's ultimately the same thing
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It's still not the same thing at all, and the other parties are not viable not because they aren't popular - they probably aren't popular because they aren't viable, in fact - but that they offer no substance or nothing that would persuade a voter to get up and vote for them. Don't blame the victim here, blame the circus that is democracy and the farce it has always been.
 
zaktoo said:
You're close. Very close.
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you are aware that if you don't vote then statistically you are voting for the ruling party? but stupidity and mathematical illiteracy goes hand in hand I guess.
 
zulgin said:
you are aware that if you don't vote then statistically you are voting for the ruling party? but stupidity and mathematical illiteracy goes hand in hand I guess.
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Careful now...
 
zaktoo said:
It's still not the same thing at all, and the other parties are not viable not because they aren't popular - they probably aren't popular because they aren't viable, in fact - but that they offer no substance or nothing that would persuade a voter to get up and vote for them. Don't blame the victim here, blame the circus that is democracy and the farce it has always been.
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It's got nothing to do with substance and everything to do with a brainwashed mass of uneducated voters. It takes influential educated figures to make a stand and say "there is a better option then the ANC" but people like Tutu can't bring themselves to turn on old comrades.

If everybody subscribed to this idealist nonsense that you only vote for a party that entirely embraces your politics and hence becomes viable nobody would ever vote because here in the real world it just doesn't exist.

Democracy in this country is a farce. Every person and their dog knew "democracy" in S.A meant ANC dominance for decades to come. All those like Tutu who claimed to "struggle" for democracy were in fact struggling for ANC power. After all this was the party of Mandela so complete ANC dominance was a good thing. "Democracy" was the means, ANC power the objective.

But the spanner in the works for tutu, zapiro and the rest of the former ANC fanboys was the supposed "change" the ANC underwent from great liberal party to corrupt despots. Now they're all dumbfounded because voting ANC is no longer an option which is all they envisioned they'd be doing.

If they had truly aimed for democracy instead of ANC dominance they'd have no problem endorsing another party because that's what democracy is all about. But they didn't so they can't........

Does this sum up your position?

http://images.sundaytimes.co.za/8/89/0000188991.jpg
 
Alan said:
It's got nothing to do with substance and everything to do with a brainwashed mass of uneducated voters. It takes influential educated figures to make a stand and say "there is a better option then the ANC" but people like Tutu can't bring themselves to turn on old comrades.

If everybody subscribed to this idealist nonsense that you only vote for a party that entirely embraces your politics and hence becomes viable nobody would ever vote because here in the real world it just doesn't exist.

Democracy in this country is a farce. Every person and their dog knew "democracy" in S.A meant ANC dominance for decades to come. All those like Tutu who claimed to "struggle" for democracy were in fact struggling for ANC power. After all this was the party of Mandela so complete ANC dominance was a good thing. "Democracy" was the means, ANC power the objective.

But the spanner in the works for tutu, zapiro and the rest of the former ANC fanboys was the supposed "change" the ANC underwent from great liberal party to corrupt despots. Now they're all dumbfounded because voting ANC is no longer an option which is all they envisioned they'd be doing.

If they had truly aimed for democracy instead of ANC dominance they'd have no problem endorsing another party because that's what democracy is all about. But they didn't so they can't........

Does this sum up your position?

http://images.sundaytimes.co.za/8/89/0000188991.jpg
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Zapiro an ANC fanboy? Roffels. And no, that does not sum up my position. FWIW, I think the ANC are doing a terrible job and have sold out their constituents completely. However, not one party in SA offers anything I can endorse. So I don't, and won't.

But again, we're drifting from the point you made which I took exception to - that not voting is the same thing as voting for the ANC. It isn't, still.
 
zaktoo said:
Zapiro an ANC fanboy? Roffels. And no, that does not sum up my position. FWIW, I think the ANC are doing a terrible job and have sold out their constituents completely. However, not one party in SA offers anything I can endorse. So I don't, and won't.
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Go read it again, clearly stated former fanboy. He says so himself, "voted ANC without hesitation". You're in the same boat aren't you. That would explain why you too can't bring yourself to vote for another party.

But again, we're drifting from the point you made which I took exception to - that not voting is the same thing as voting for the ANC. It isn't, still.
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You're entitled to your opinion.
 
Alan said:
Go read it again, clearly stated former fanboy. He says so himself, "voted ANC without hesitation". You're in the same boat aren't you. That would explain why you too can't bring yourself to vote for another party.
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Oh, I see, you're taking that cartoon as his literal stance. It may well be, but he's not stated it explicitly, has he?

Alan said:
You're entitled to your opinion.
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It's not opinion, as I said - it's quantifiable. If you can't accept that you need to work on differentiation of reality from fantasy.

And don't go throwing accusations around, especially ones that are absolutely untrue. I've not voted ANC in my life. You need to figure out how to debate the actual points at hand without attacking the person saying them. I'm done with this waste of time anyway ;)
 
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