comparison between sa today and zimbabwe

Debbie2 said:
We've had a Zimbabwean friend of ours staying with us for a few days recently.

He was telling us about a public protest he stumbled on in JHB. He says when he saw the cops arrive, he didn't even think about it, he just turned around and RAN like the wind.

He says that after running for a bit, he realised he was alone, that no-one else had run away like he had. He said it was then that he remembered he was in South Africa, and not Zimbabwe.

I know SA could turn into another Zimbabwe, that is certainly a possibility. But so could any other country turn into another Zim.

I don't deny that there have been moves by the Mbeki government to centralise power in the executive ('the executive' is the president and cabinet - ie. the ministers), and I know that democracy in SA is certainly not the best in the world. But that being said, SA is still a far far cry from turning into Zimbabwe. However, we must remain ever vigilant, PARTICULARLY when it comes to issues surrounding freedom of the press and freedom of expression. because once those freedoms are gone, then we will truly be powerless and 'another Zim' would be all the more likely to happen.
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Well the Zimbabweans I speak to have also made a few observations. The most interesting was that Zimbabwe didn't become a banana republic overnight - it slowly evolved that way. They also were able to recognise actions that our government are taking that resemble the ones ZanuPF took in the past.

Speaking of the cops - I seem to remember lots of riots, shotguns, teargas, rubber bullets and beatings and other heavy handed behaviour condemned by the ANC/PAC and the rest of the world. How is it that they are doing the same thing now?
 
skeptic I agree that democracy is precarious, and in SA this seems to be the case more and more. (This could be that my perceptions have changed instead of the actual situation changing). But I stand by my opinion that SA is far far from the verge of being 'another Zimbabwe'.

You make a good point about the increasing use of rubber bullets and teargas in putting down protest in SA.
 
Debbie2 said:
skeptic I agree that democracy is precarious, and in SA this seems to be the case more and more. (This could be that my perceptions have changed instead of the actual situation changing). But I stand by my opinion that SA is far far from the verge of being 'another Zimbabwe'.

You make a good point about the increasing use of rubber bullets and teargas in putting down protest in SA.
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I'm not so sure we would recognise ourselves as another Zimbabwe or admit the fact once we in in it's midst.

Zim also has a parliament - more like the British confrontational one with the opposition parties 2 sword lengths away - and have the trappings of a democracy. They even have elected MPs, unless I'm misinformed. We, on the other hand, don't even know who our 'appointed' MPs are.:rolleyes:
 
Debbie2 said:
skeptik, as for SA not admitting that we are in the process of another Zim, this is why I say freedom of the press is key.
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Agreed. More important, the concept of accountability is necessary to escape the Zimbabwe slide. It takes more than a free press ripping/reminding/ridiculing inept politicians. They have to be "honourable" enough to accept they've messed up and resign. They sure as hell won't get canned by the leaders! This appears entirely absent in SA. Recently we even have the likes of Alec Irwin denying he said "sabotage" when millions of people saw it on TV.:eek:
 
I think you're on to something Skeptic - accountability is completely absent in the South African leadership.

Here's an example: despite massive public outcry over the terrible way in which our Health Minister is running things, she is still in office? There has been a frequent public outcry for the DoC to sort out Telecoms in this country. We the people have been promised action during every major presidential State of the Union type of address. Even though for several years hardly anything has been done in the industry to sort it out, a weak (and sleepy) person remains in charge?

One needs only look at the rampant corruption rate (I highlighted the conflict-of-interest type ownership of companies by some of our ministers in an earlier thread) in the governmnet. The arms deal is the perfect example of corruption on a mass scale - and the covering up of the facts by the government is nearly Enron-like. "Travelgate" is another example.

When one digs deeper into this then it becomes clearly evident that certain ministers would be very interested in seeing the press censored. At present the only checks and balances being applied against the ANC led leadership is the critique from the press and open media. (And some political parties, though they really are seen as yapping little dogs by the ANC led coalition)

I have a theory. Since the announcement was made in the press of Jacob Zuma's intention to sue the press and media it bothered me that there would even be such an attempt. Then it dawned on me: Zuma enjoys massive support from many many people (just see how many letters of support he gets on his Friends of Jacob Zuma site), most notably the ANC Youth League and COSATU. The easiest way to garner support for an ANC ideal (which is at present likely to try and remove press related criticism) would be to get the people behind it. The ANC government needs to make sure that the ANCYL particularly would not oppose a bill designed to censor the press and media. That is where ANC deputy president Jacob Zuma comes into the picture - he has single handedly swayed the ANCYL against the media. I am certain that if it were not for JZ, then there would have been a massive outcry in opposition of any and all attempts to stifle the media from the ANCYL as well as COSATU.

So what has my theory got to do with the thread topic? As halicon tried to point out (and it went over the head of the usual suspects), the power shift in the executive is being strongly countered by 2 major shareholders in the tripartite coalition government. That is a stark similarity between Zimbabwe and South Africa right there. These same 2 shareholders (and a large proportion of the ANC itself) want the power shifted towards a people type representative - someone who enjoys massive support of the people, even though his actions do not in any way show that he gives a hoot about the people. Robert Mugabe is Zimbabwe's man. Jacob Zuma is South Africa's. Similarity number 2.

The land reform program in South Africa has take a step in the same direction as Zimbabwe's with the abolition of willing buyer/willing seller is number three. Flame me till you're purple, it is a step in the same direction (I'm not saying it's there yet, far from it, but there certainly has been a change in the direction).

In Zimbabwe, many people are living with crime to the nth degree. Zimbabwean criminals have become notorious for their extreme violence and cavalier approach to people's lives. Thousands of the crimes in South Africa are being committed by Zimbabweans. Also, many of the kingpins in the various syndicates are Zimbabwean. South Africa and Zimbabwe are similarly placed in murders per capita. Also, farm murders in Zimbabwe were as rampant 10 years ago as they now are in South Africa today.

Economically wise, people are forgetting that Zimbabwe was once one of the fastest growing Economic Emerging nations.

I believe that South Africa is approaching a fork in the road. The one path will be towards a prosperous, but difficult future for all South Africans. The other would be a path towards a Zimbabwe style meltdown, inevitably ending in a mass exodus of talented, educated and very able people. Those who remain would all still be towing the party line with their support for whichever tinpot happens to be leading at the time.
 
Anybody notice how reluctant the anc is to fire anybody - or reprimand anybody - quite happily allow their ministers to lie, cheat and steal - and not a word is said. Where is the sanction from Mbeki over Erwin's sabotage claims (who has lied so many times on this he no longer knows or remembers the truth.)
 
WHAT DO YOU GUYS EXPECT FROM NATIVE AFRICAN LEADERS! THE TREND IS THEY FEEL NOTHING FOR THEIR OWN AS LONG AS THEY CAN LAY THEIR HANDS ON THE MONEY.

Proof of that is what we see daily in the news and the Canadian aids debacle! supports the intelect crisis this GVT and their supporters have, SO NOT UNLIKE ZUMA!
 
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At least the rest of the world now knows we have an intellectual crises - I wonder what Comrade Blatter would have to say?

"South Africa is a multi-cultural country of different tribes... and you do need a certain kind of intelligence to bring this all together," Blatter told a press conference at the World Cup in Germany.

Fifa 'not missionaries' in SA, says Blatter July 04 2006
 
kilo39 said:
At least the rest of the world now knows we have an intellectual crises - I wonder what Comrade Blatter would have to say?

"South Africa is a multi-cultural country of different tribes... and you do need a certain kind of intelligence to bring this all together," Blatter told a press conference at the World Cup in Germany.

Fifa 'not missionaries' in SA, says Blatter July 04 2006
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LOL It a wonder our "leadership" do not ban him, but then again they need the 2010 to improve their world standing if they can make a success of it. Luckilly there is still some good genes in the management of this potential debacle. We can only see. They do have in excuse to fall back on. "ITS THE APARTHEID LEGACY THAT HOUNDs US"

We are not the only ones with problems http://www.mybroadband.co.za/nephp/?m=show&id=3905
 
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pupa said:
We are not the only ones with problems http://www.mybroadband.co.za/nephp/?m=show&id=3905
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What I would like to know is:

"Orange has received a number of complaints regarding the content of an article written by an Orange employee and published on an independent website which has offended some of our customers," said Stuart Jackson, Orange's head of media relations.

The article on the ConservativeHome.com discussion website, under the name Inigo Wilson, gives a set of definitions for what the author calls "politically correct" terms, with an entry for Palestinians reading: "Archetype 'victims' no matter how many teenagers they murder in bars and fast food outlets."

How do they know who owns an anonymous sig?
 
kilo39 said:
Anybody notice how reluctant the anc is to fire anybody - or reprimand anybody - quite happily allow their ministers to lie, cheat and steal - and not a word is said. Where is the sanction from Mbeki over Erwin's sabotage claims (who has lied so many times on this he no longer knows or remembers the truth.)
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The government has a problem. If they sack someone with a criminal record, then they have to sack a lot of people. This is why they made a deal with the courts to have many of the travelgate charges reduced, allowing the perpetrators to plea-bargain their way out of their situation. Imagine having to sack 100+ MPs :eek: including the Education Minister.

Also I don't think Mbeki's hands are entirely spotless, which may be why he is failing to act. This business with the arms deal is just beginning to reveal some secrets that go all the way to the top. Why is he denying meeting the French arms company?

Re: Zuma - Does he have something on Mbeki?
 
Tassidar said:
Don't you think you are all being a bit cynical.

Zim has inflation of over 1000%, we have inflation of under 6%.

Let's get this clear: Zimbabwe has never had a free and fair election ever! From the time that Britain handed over Rhodesia, and the first election was held, there was voter intimidation and corruption. For example: Zanu-PF spread the rumour that they had imported a machine from Romania which told them who citizens voted for, and if you didn't vote for Zanu, they would come after you. (Source: P. Stiff; Cry Zimbabwe).

The differences between ZA and Zim are great; much, much greater than the similarities.
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Strange – Zim population has a far better literacy index than the RSA. Even with their much higher education pp they are battling to get to grips with terms like democracy, because violence is an intimidating force. Especially when it comes from President Mugabe that has a Hitler like moustache and of no different behaviour either.

I am surprised BOB has not written a book called ‘My Kraal’

I can just imagine how much more lies the ANC can imprint on the minds of our population. Watch this forum for more.
 
Angelo said:
Cases involving Zuma, Yengeni etc. rubbish your claim.
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In the eyes of the beholder! A mother always think her baby or child is innocent!

The cases seems like staged to get the sympathy of the electorate. Zuma is more popular now than ever not? What about the hundreds of other cases where GVT members were caught with fraud and were given years to "Pay" back the funds over so many years interest free, only till its all forgotten then the payments will stop and the money written off.

Angelo wipe the sh@t out your eyes and do something about the tripe in your brainwashed mind as you are either blind or just mighty stupid!
 
BTech said:
@ Poepa ?? Is jy ooraait??

Isn't funny that SA is now back to financial strength and buying power of 1981? Can't see how we compare to ZIM in any fashion? I mean after all there are many countries in total poverty like zim so why compare us to them. Oh... you get your jollies by blah bla blahing all over the forum.

http://www.fin24.co.za/articles/eco...px?Nav=ns&lvl2=econ&ArticleID=1518-25_1983861
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Zim was not as poor as it is now. They became poor because of their policy's. We will go the same way IMHO. No other African country succeeded after colonialism ended and they had to rule themselves, Why would matters here be different? What is the common denominator in Africa?
 
One such 'common denominator' is a history of colonialism and a present of neo-colonialism. There are others, such as the fact that traditional african cultures tend to revere leaders/politicians, which leads to a situation where accountability is thrown out the window.

Democracy was festering in europe for hundreds of years before it became (somewhat) a reality. africa has no such history, though i stand to be corrected on this.
 
Zimbabwe today was created from a couple of basic things that happend.
1)Land Grabs
2)Disregard for the rule of law by the goverment.
3)Loss of property rights (people can only lease land now).
4)Freedom of the press lost.

"Asuming" there are forces moving to turn SA into a zimbabwe then the only thing I see that has happend here in SA that has any similarity to zim is the expropriation of white farmland, other than that maybe these amendmends to the film publications act to include the press under it(but that will only see the light of day if 2) happens).

Like others have said unless some idiot like zuma gets power I seriously doubt that this will become a zimbabwe. <- Interesting how we can say "a Zimbabwe".
 
Debbie2 said:
Democracy was festering in europe for hundreds of years before it became (somewhat) a reality. africa has no such history, though i stand to be corrected on this.
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i agree that south africa's democracy is still an infant when compared to many european countries or even america (if that is democracy).

however democracy doesnt automatically mean stability either. China a world power that is poised to be at the top is far from a democratic state.

IMHO oppinion what is required is commitment from the leaders not to follow any example but to rather set an example. if south africa 10 years from now is a booming economy, with a strong middle class and country generally blossoming with opportunity and offering a stable and good life then they would have pioneered where no african country has.

however it seems our current leaders are not interested in doing this.
 
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