Compulsory education for convicts

Children are technically wards of the State and thus the State can enforce compulsory education. Not so sure trying that with an adult would be correct regardless of whether we think its a good idea or not.
 
Compulsory basic education between ages 7-15 or until grade 9 is made by the schools act and not the constitution.

Bill of rights section 36 says...

"1. The rights in the Bill of Rights may be limited only in terms of law of general application to the extent that the limitation is reasonable and justifiable in an open and democratic society based on human dignity, equality and freedom, taking into account all relevant factors,including
a. the nature of the right;
b. the importance of the purpose of the limitation;
c. the nature and extent of the limitation;
d. the relation between the limitation and its purpose; and
e. less restrictive means to achieve the purpose.

2. Except as provided in subsection (1) or in any other provision of the Constitution, no law may limit any right entrenched in the Bill of Rights."
 
I played more than a handful of golf games at Leeukop GC, from 95's upto 2009. Golf course within a prison complex. I used to be pleasantly surprised they had the best veggie gardens (tended by cons); I had ever seen & our caddy boyz were invariably the prisoners (They, the criminals were just trying to make a living...:D )
During my last game there ('09), I noticed that prisoners were no longer allowed as caddies as a few had used to the opportunity to flee. Privileges will always be abused.
 
saksakgp said:
Compulsory basic education between ages 7-15 or until grade 9 is made by the schools act and not the constitution.

Bill of rights section 36 says...

"1. The rights in the Bill of Rights may be limited only in terms of law of general application to the extent that the limitation is reasonable and justifiable in an open and democratic society based on human dignity, equality and freedom, taking into account all relevant factors,including
a. the nature of the right;
b. the importance of the purpose of the limitation;
c. the nature and extent of the limitation;
d. the relation between the limitation and its purpose; and
e. less restrictive means to achieve the purpose.

2. Except as provided in subsection (1) or in any other provision of the Constitution, no law may limit any right entrenched in the Bill of Rights."
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Um, all laws are subject to constitutional bearing. The entire criminal justice system is prescribed in a separate act to the constitution. It is bound by constitutional laws though. The same applies here. The school act is subject to the constitution. That is how it works...
 
Freshy-ZN said:
Children are technically wards of the State and thus the State can enforce compulsory education. Not so sure trying that with an adult would be correct regardless of whether we think its a good idea or not.
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Legally though, children are bound by the same constitutional laws and provided the same freedoms and protections as the constitution as adults...
 
The only people that are, or should be, bound by the Constitution are the lawmakers.
There are potentially many laws and statutes that do not pass Constitutional muster and forcing an education upon someone could be one of them.

The flaw in the system is the cost to challenge and as a result many laws that perhaps should be challenged are not.
 
So can the less fortunate send their children to jail for an education?
The pass rate seems better than the public school system.

Kinda like boarding school for the poor.
 
Well which specific constitutionally protected rights are infringed when making education mandatory?
 
Beachless said:
So can the less fortunate send their children to jail for an education?
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They should already be getting an education, and as far as I know, juvenile detention centres have always provided education...
 
daveza said:
Someone is going to complain to the ConCourt on the basis of discrimination.

Adults not in prison are not forced to complete matric bla bla...

Matric is already a worthless qualification, personally I think learning a trade would be a far better idea.
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+1 We need more trademen, much better than academic education.
 
DJ... said:
Well which specific constitutionally protected rights are infringed when making education mandatory?
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Who knows? Perhaps the Freedom of Choice? The Freedom of Opinion? Are you of the opinion that the Bill of Rights is comprehensive? (in other words perfect?). If so then you could argue that the Rights listed therein are given as opposed to natural. Something given can be taken away.

My concern is that a prisoner who is forced to receive an education against his will, for whatever reason that prisoner decides, is an infringement on his rights. He has already been forced to give up his right to freedom but does the power of the State have any further power such as forced education in this case?
 
Freshy-ZN said:
Who knows? Perhaps the Freedom of Choice? The Freedom of Opinion?
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The bill doesn't make any mention of anything being compulsory as being limiting one's choices. For example, parole requirements. They're compulsory. Education - that's compulsory. Tax payments and tax forms completion - compulsory. If making something compulsory prohibited the bill of rights in any way, particularly wrt things like tax and education, it would have been challenged by now, no doubt. I can't find mention of any cases.

Are you of the opinion that the Bill of Rights is comprehensive?
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I'm of the opinion that it can change, subject to incredible scrutiny and considerable requirements. The fact that someone might object and attempt to have the constitution changed is nether here nor there, as the argument is that it is unconstitutional. I'm looking for the evidence that it is, as I can see none.

My concern is that a prisoner who is forced to receive an education against his will, for whatever reason that prisoner decides, is an infringement on his rights.
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His freedom of movement and association is also limited in prison, to an extent. As is his freedom of choice. We'd need radical changes to the constitution to keep prisoners behind bars if enforcing education breached their freedoms as per the constitution. I get the distinct impression that this is in no way a problem. If it's not a problem for age 7 to 15 years, I don't see how it can be a problem for other age groups without changing the bill of rights...
 
Well since you brought up tax heres an interesting article entitled : Is Income Tax Constitutional?

Again, the problem is that the State considers the rights in the Constitution as something they have given and can thus limit or take away completely. Ill say it again as well- just because something is in a law or is commonplace does not automatically mean it is Constitutional.
 
Freshy-ZN said:
Well since you brought up tax heres an interesting article entitled : Is Income Tax Constitutional?

Again, the problem is that the State considers the rights in the Constitution as something they have given and can thus limit or take away completely. Ill say it again as well- just because something is in a law or is commonplace does not automatically mean it is Constitutional.
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I'm not disagreeing with you here. But in this specific instance, nothing appears to be unconstitutional about compulsory education. I can find numerous American and British papers on the legalities of forced education, but nothing for SA so far. Pity, as I'm genuinely interested to see it tested. I really do not believe that it infringes on any basic human rights, but I'm happy to change my tune if it is pointed out to be otherwise...
 
How will the authorities deal with prisoners who choose not to take part in the education? Will it be an offence? Will they be spanked? Will they have their sentences extended? Will they not be eligible for parole? That's where constitutionality comes in. What do you do when your 14 year old tells you he/she doesn't want to go to school? How do you lawfully and constitutionally deal with that?

About tax, I'm sure the constitution says something about tax elsewhere in it.

Section 36 says that no law may limit any right in the bill of rights apart from any other provision contained within the constitution. So if some other part of the constitution says that you can be taxed then that's a limit provided for by the same constitution. But the constitution does not say that education is compulsory so if there is a law/policy that says education is compulsory it has to be tested against the bill of rights and other provisions of the constitution. I don't see it surviving the test.
 
saksakgp said:
How will the authorities deal with prisoners who choose not to take part in the education? Will it be an offence? Will they be spanked? Will they have their sentences extended? Will they not be eligible for parole?
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No, that's where ordinary laws apply, not the constitution. When written, these laws determine how these aspects are dealt with, and if compulsory education is in place, then penalties will be prescribed. So what if sentences are extended? That's not unconstitutional. So what if it affects their parole? That's also not unconstitutional. The constitution doesn't deal with the specifics you're talking about.

As to how you deal with your 14 year old, that is dependent on your situation, and truancy can and is supposed to be reported.

You keep stating that compulsory education is unconstitutional. Yet you can't point out what specifically makes it so, nor what constitutional right(s) it transgresses. And the law absolutely can prescribe compulsory education, or even requisite education, as per various industries and positions. In terms of compulsory education, it is dealt with in The South African Schools Act, specifically in Chapter 2, Section 3(1) of the Act.

So have a read through the act, then have a read through our Constitution and come back with specifics as to how you come to the conclusion that compulsory education infringes on your basic freedoms...
 
saksakgp said:
I don't see why I should repeat myself. My first post stated that this will be an infringement of section 12.
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Because I addressed the aspects of section 12 in that compulsory education makes no limitations on it. So unless you'd like to use case law, precedent, or logic to rebut my post, we can assume that you concede that section 12 is not infringed in any way. IANAL, however the constitution is quite straight-forward, so perhaps there is a logical argument to be had here where you can show me where section 12 rights are infringed upon?

I don't see why I should bother to amicable reply in detail to your posts if you're simply going to ignore them and pretend that they didn't happen...
 
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