Contemplating a total career change.

[HDS]

Hey guys, so as it stands I am strongly thinking of changing my career. My current job pays good but it sucks - boring as hell. Working with so much incompetence in this country is also not helping.

I have my eye set on software development, as well as game programming (AI programming in particular, but that will require additional courses after the initial study). My parents are moving abroad this September to EU,and seeing as they are getting old I'd like to be near them. Netherlands would be my preferred choice of country to study in, they have high standards of living, hard working people that get things done, and very good standard of higher education.

This is what I want to study (programming is done in C++ during the core phase, not C). That programme is 4 years, and leads to a bachelor degree. After I am done with it, I plan on doing Masters part-time (+2 years).

Now, could the IT guys here comment on that programme I linked above? Any feedback will be greatly appreciated and would help me make my choice.

I am absolutely dead-set and 100% sure that I want this. I do study C++ in my spare time(got 2 books that I'm currently busy with), as well as some UML.

 

[kingrob]

Just do it.

Learn to trust your instinct more.

 

[cguy]

Hey guys, so as it stands I am strongly thinking of changing my career. My current job pays good but it sucks - boring as hell. Working with so much incompetence in this country is also not helping.

I have my eye set on software development, as well as game programming (AI programming in particular, but that will require additional courses after the initial study). My parents are moving abroad this September to EU,and seeing as they are getting old I'd like to be near them. Netherlands would be my preferred choice of country to study in, they have high standards of living, hard working people that get things done, and very good standard of higher education.

This is what I want to study (programming is done in C++ during the core phase, not C). That programme is 4 years, and leads to a bachelor degree. After I am done with it, I plan on doing Masters part-time (+2 years).

Now, could the IT guys here comment on that programme I linked above? Any feedback will be greatly appreciated and would help me make my choice.

I am absolutely dead-set and 100% sure that I want this. I do study C++ in my spare time(got 2 books that I'm currently busy with), as well as some UML.

What aspects of game AI are you interested in? Depending on what you are trying to achieve, you may want to do something with a bit more of a focus on computer science and algorithms, and possibly more maths+stats. Apart from that it looks fine.

Something that I recommend for anyone who wants to study or do game programming, is to keep your options open. It is a brutal industry, and a involves a lot less "fun" than most people think.

 

[koeksGHT]

It is a brutal industry, and a involves a lot less "fun" than most people think.

this, but worth it

 

[cguy]

this, but worth it

Definitely debatable. Obviously different people have different motivations, but it seems that many people walk off in a huff after a few years. This has been my experience with friends and colleagues that have worked in the industry - there's even this"5 years average in the industry" idea, but I honestly, don't know if it's true or not - my experience supports this, but I wouldn't consider my experiences here to be a large enough sample to be conclusive.

What I have observed about my friends and colleagues that have stuck it out in the industry, is that most of them stay due to some combination of sunk cost fallacy, and career myopia, which they tend to call (and confuse with) "passion" a lot. They also tend to complain about money and their jobs continuously. There are occasional success stories from the Indie route, but these tend to be black swan phenomena, more than anything else.

 

[km2]

Hey guys, so as it stands I am strongly thinking of changing my career. My current job pays good but it sucks - boring as hell. Working with so much incompetence in this country is also not helping.

If you don't enjoy what you're doing changing careers totally makes sense. Just realise that software development is a field where you frequently have to deal with the "incompetence" of others, and you're going to have to be able to handle being surrounded by a LOT of perceived and real incompetence to survive. There's a very good reason that IT people end up with the perception of being grumpy and unapproachable You'll be working with users who will have a different or changing idea of what they want, have to work on other developers code which doesn't always work properly or appear to be sensible constructed, business strategy will result in different priorities for you to work on compared to what you may see as pressing issues, sales will be promising features that "almost" exist and they're "sure they can be easily added" despite not taking your timeline input. All of these things can triggers feelings of being surrounded by incompetence even when they are competent in their own respective fields.

Otherwise the areas you're studying sounds fine. If you do have time while you're doing your studies, try and get a few small projects under your belt (even if they're just personal passion projects which potential employers can look at) so that you have that experience to show on your CV.

 

[semaphore]

Hey guys, so as it stands I am strongly thinking of changing my career. My current job pays good but it sucks - boring as hell. Working with so much incompetence in this country is also not helping.

I have my eye set on software development, as well as game programming (AI programming in particular, but that will require additional courses after the initial study). My parents are moving abroad this September to EU,and seeing as they are getting old I'd like to be near them. Netherlands would be my preferred choice of country to study in, they have high standards of living, hard working people that get things done, and very good standard of higher education.

This is what I want to study (programming is done in C++ during the core phase, not C). That programme is 4 years, and leads to a bachelor degree. After I am done with it, I plan on doing Masters part-time (+2 years).

Now, could the IT guys here comment on that programme I linked above? Any feedback will be greatly appreciated and would help me make my choice.

I am absolutely dead-set and 100% sure that I want this. I do study C++ in my spare time(got 2 books that I'm currently busy with), as well as some UML.

A friend of mine is a developer at RockStar games, he equates the environment similar to a concentration camp.

 

[zippy]

The bad news is that incompetence isn't unique to "this country". And is also not limited to any industry. IT is not immune. If you think an IT career is going to solve this part of your working life, you are in for some disappointments.

In fact a career in IT is going to expose you the incompetence of people in other areas. Marketing, manufacturing, finance etc. If anything, IT teaches how to deal with incompetence, because if you cant, you will go insane

Good luck !!

 

[MickZA]

In fact a career in IT is going to expose you the incompetence of people in other areas. Marketing, manufacturing, finance etc. If anything, IT teaches how to deal with incompetence, because if you cant, you will go insane

Good luck !!

I develop for retail POS, there was a time when I optimistically thought that, on a good day, a cashier had an IQ of 1

 

[HDS]

What aspects of game AI are you interested in? Depending on what you are trying to achieve, you may want to do something with a bit more of a focus on computer science and algorithms, and possibly more maths+stats. Apart from that it looks fine.

Something that I recommend for anyone who wants to study or do game programming, is to keep your options open. It is a brutal industry, and a involves a lot less "fun" than most people think.

Thinking something along the lines of NPC programming. I'm not too sure about the specifics, but that's just the general direction. I was initially thinking about CompSci, but the lack of practical work scared me away. One would have to do the programming on your own, which adds a lot of extra work if not structured properly.

The bold part is exactly what I was worried about. Many universities offer these game development/programming degrees, which can be useless when looking for a job in the game industry. With CompSci or software development you are guaranteed to find a proper job after graduation, maybe not in the game industry but in ICT or whatever.

If you don't enjoy what you're doing changing careers totally makes sense. Just realise that software development is a field where you frequently have to deal with the "incompetence" of others, and you're going to have to be able to handle being surrounded by a LOT of perceived and real incompetence to survive. There's a very good reason that IT people end up with the perception of being grumpy and unapproachable You'll be working with users who will have a different or changing idea of what they want, have to work on other developers code which doesn't always work properly or appear to be sensible constructed, business strategy will result in different priorities for you to work on compared to what you may see as pressing issues, sales will be promising features that "almost" exist and they're "sure they can be easily added" despite not taking your timeline input. All of these things can triggers feelings of being surrounded by incompetence even when they are competent in their own respective fields.

Otherwise the areas you're studying sounds fine. If you do have time while you're doing your studies, try and get a few small projects under your belt (even if they're just personal passion projects which potential employers can look at) so that you have that experience to show on your CV.

Yeah, I get what you are saying. But the Dutch are renowned for being hard working people in general. I mean you can't compare the kind of people there to the people here in general.

I read that a portfolio is a must. Nobody looks at just qualifications anymore.

A friend of mine is a developer at RockStar games, he equates the environment similar to a concentration camp.

Rockstar are known to "not have the best working conditions" to put it lightly, like EA. But they get paid very well. I for one wouldn't put my health on the line for more money.

The bad news is that incompetence isn't unique to "this country". And is also not limited to any industry. IT is not immune. If you think an IT career is going to solve this part of your working life, you are in for some disappointments.

In fact a career in IT is going to expose you the incompetence of people in other areas. Marketing, manufacturing, finance etc. If anything, IT teaches how to deal with incompetence, because if you cant, you will go insane

Good luck !!

Well, I don't think incompetence will be a big problem here. Surely there will be some dumb people, but Europeans are just not the same as Africans.

I develop for retail POS, there was a time when I optimistically thought that, on a good day, a cashier had an IQ of 1

Well then, isn't that why he is a cashier?

 

[semaphore]

You are correct with regards to portfolio, show clever use of lighting effects, perhaps some new nifty physics and that will definitely get you looked at. Otherwise contribute towards open source 3D engine projects, read the code and optimize.

I went through a stage where i wanted to dev games, but yeah that died very fast. I dont really have a passion for playing games so i would never really have one for creating them.

 

[shauntir]

Hey guys, so as it stands I am strongly thinking of changing my career. My current job pays good but it sucks - boring as hell. Working with so much incompetence in this country is also not helping.

I have my eye set on software development, as well as game programming (AI programming in particular, but that will require additional courses after the initial study). My parents are moving abroad this September to EU,and seeing as they are getting old I'd like to be near them. Netherlands would be my preferred choice of country to study in, they have high standards of living, hard working people that get things done, and very good standard of higher education.

This is what I want to study (programming is done in C++ during the core phase, not C). That programme is 4 years, and leads to a bachelor degree. After I am done with it, I plan on doing Masters part-time (+2 years).

Now, could the IT guys here comment on that programme I linked above? Any feedback will be greatly appreciated and would help me make my choice.

I am absolutely dead-set and 100% sure that I want this. I do study C++ in my spare time(got 2 books that I'm currently busy with), as well as some UML.

The course seems a bit limited with regards to what you want to achieve. I do not see any modules on AI or game programming. I remember UNISA had these modules.

However, if you are willing to learn these subjects on your own without formal study then this is a fine route to go.

 

[km2]

Yeah, I get what you are saying. But the Dutch are renowned for being hard working people in general. I mean you can't compare the kind of people there to the people here in general.

Well, I don't think incompetence will be a big problem here. Surely there will be some dumb people, but Europeans are just not the same as Africans.

Well then, isn't that why he is a cashier?

Prepare for some disappointment as perceived incompetence crosses all countries and pay grades, especially when you're in a technical field. You try and show some CEO, who may otherwise be fine at their job, how to operate email on their phone and you'll get that same feeling. They might be a programmer who's damn brilliant and worked on code before you but he's done things in a clever but obtuse way, and I guarantee you'll be cursing his name after a few hours. If you start thinking "why am I surrounded by these FOOLS!" it will wipe you out, you've got to be able to roll with it.

When you get your programming job and have to do maintenance programming just remember this thread the first time you think "the guy before me who worked on this was an idiot, it'll be easier for me to just rewrite this app but I'll do it properly".

 

[MickZA]

When you get your programming job and have to do maintenance programming just remember this thread the first time you think "the guy before me who worked on this was an idiot".

Exactly what I often mutter when I revisit code I wrote in the past

 

[HDS]

Prepare for some disappointment as perceived incompetence crosses all countries and pay grades, especially when you're in a technical field. You try and show some CEO, who may otherwise be fine at their job, how to operate email on their phone and you'll get that same feeling. They might be a programmer who's damn brilliant and worked on code before you but he's done things in a clever but obtuse way, and I guarantee you'll be cursing his name after a few hours. If you start thinking "why am I surrounded by these FOOLS!" it will wipe you out, you've got to be able to roll with it.

When you get your programming job and have to do maintenance programming just remember this thread the first time you think "the guy before me who worked on this was an idiot, it'll be easier for me to just rewrite this app but I'll do it properly".

I get what you are saying. I guess only time will tell how bad it really is. Certainly can't be as bad as having to shout at BEE workers every day...

 

[cguy]

Thinking something along the lines of NPC programming. I'm not too sure about the specifics, but that's just the general direction. I was initially thinking about CompSci, but the lack of practical work scared me away. One would have to do the programming on your own, which adds a lot of extra work if not structured properly.

To do something cutting edge for an NPC algorithm, you will likely need to have a good background in algorithms and possibly some stats (think path finding accounting for geometric bottlenecks, and danger avoidance, or NPCs that learn by observation, etc.). The course you link to does seem to have a more structured programming curriculum than standard CS, but CS really does include a lot of practical work, it's just that it's usually implementations of things that usually aren't done in the average day job (which is pretty much what you want, if you're not targeting the average day job).

The bold part is exactly what I was worried about. Many universities offer these game development/programming degrees, which can be useless when looking for a job in the game industry. With CompSci or software development you are guaranteed to find a proper job after graduation, maybe not in the game industry but in ICT or whatever.

Good call.

I read that a portfolio is a must. Nobody looks at just qualifications anymore.

For game dev, certainly - for other work, it's true to a lesser extent: what is more important is that you will likely do better in an interview due to the experience gained from these projects.

Rockstar are known to "not have the best working conditions" to put it lightly, like EA. But they get paid very well. I for one wouldn't put my health on the line for more money.

This is a symptom of most of the industry - "crunch time" become the standard due to poor project planning (actually, I believe that the reality is that they often plan for extended crunch times). Also, the bigger companies like Rockstar pay relatively well, in comparison to the rest of the industry, but it is still way less than those programmers (in particular) would be able to get outside of the industry.

 

[zippy]

Well, I don't think incompetence will be a big problem here. Surely there will be some dumb people, but Europeans are just not the same as Africans.

An uneducated European is as thick as an uneducated African.

 

[HDS]

To do something cutting edge for an NPC algorithm, you will likely need to have a good background in algorithms and possibly some stats (think path finding accounting for geometric bottlenecks, and danger avoidance, or NPCs that learn by observation, etc.). The course you link to does seem to have a more structured programming curriculum than standard CS, but CS really does include a lot of practical work, it's just that it's usually implementations of things that usually aren't done in the average day job (which is pretty much what you want, if you're not targeting the average day job).

I had a talk with a guy with a compsci degree, he said the amount of practical work you do in compsci is more or less the same as with software engineering. I am now however leaning towards Compsci, because as I understand it's a bit more flexible than software engineering.

The problem is I don't want to do more math than actual programming - which is actually in contrast with what I said earlier, as AI programming requires exactly that.

 

[cguy]

I had a talk with a guy with a compsci degree, he said the amount of practical work you do in compsci is more or less the same as with software engineering. I am now however leaning towards Compsci, because as I understand it's a bit more flexible than software engineering.

The problem is I don't want to do more math than actual programming - which is actually in contrast with what I said earlier, as AI programming requires exactly that.

Most CS degrees are fairly flexible - at UCT for example you can get a CS degree with 1 year of Maths, or you could major in Maths as well as CS. The only significant "hole" I really saw in your course (assuming the contents of the maths1/2 courses are actually the same as university maths), is a lack of a stats course. Advanced calculus and applied maths could be useful too.

 

[HDS]

Most CS degrees are fairly flexible - at UCT for example you can get a CS degree with 1 year of Maths, or you could major in Maths as well as CS. The only significant "hole" I really saw in your course (assuming the contents of the maths1/2 courses are actually the same as university maths), is a lack of a stats course. Advanced calculus and applied maths could be useful too.

The info on the website isn't up to date. I asked them for full details about the course, and calculus as well as applied linear algebra is included. If I do take that programme I'm planning on taking maths as a minor during the 3rd year.

I'm still torn between that and compsci. If I do go the compsci route, it's only 3 years til bachelors and further 2 years til masters. A lot of thought will still have to be put into this.