Degree vs Certification vs Experience

[shooter69]

Hi,

I have been a developer now for 7 years. Started out with T-sql and vb.net for 3 years. After that C# for 2. The last 2 years I have been employed as an RPG(IBM) and .Net developer. (Backend work mostly)

So now I am considering getting something other than Matric behind my name but do not know what. I was thinking about the BSC informatics. But I know people with BSC's that can not code. I know people without BSC's that makes a lot more money than I thought a dev could make even with a BSC.

So here is my question. Considering that I have been employed for 7 years as a developer. Do I study a degree or do I do a certification like MCSD and Java?

The one thing bothering me about the BSC is the fact that I will be 34-36(I am 30 now) when I finish if I start in January.

I do not see myself going into management in the near or far future. I love coding and most managers do not code. I will probably stay a coder all my life as this is what I like doing.

 

[cguy]

Definitely a BSc. Everyone "knows people" who fall out of the expected parameters - basing a decision on exceptions doesn't make sense. For the most part, people learn a lot in a BSc, especially if they work hard at it and excel in their studies. Other's will try wangle their way to a B.Sc. via copying practicals, memorizing answers to past papers and scraping through with the bare minimum pass - don't be that guy ;-).

 

[nickc]

Experience definitely trumps all else, but I am still biased towards a BSc. Yes, it is no guarantee that a graduate will actually be a good software developer, but I think they will have a better chance than with anything else. At the end of the day it does come down to aptitude.

The main question is why do you want the qualification? To help when looking for another job, or to round out your skill set?

In both cases I would still say BSc. Whether you like it or not, most job adverts will specify degree or equivalent (what exactly do they mean when they say equivalent anyway?).

The main reason I recommend a BSc is all the extras, as well as just coding. I learnt about 7 programming languages, did maths, stats, cryptography, etc, etc. there are many modules, and you can mix and match as you want in third year. You can also combine the BCom IST major with a BSc, which has some project management stuff in it which is at least interesting, even if you are not interested in management. I found the mix has helped me in my career.

My second choice would be MCSD, I have found the content relevant and useful.

 

[shooter69]

Experience definitely trumps all else, but I am still biased towards a BSc. Yes, it is no guarantee that a graduate will actually be a good software developer, but I think they will have a better chance than with anything else. At the end of the day it does come down to aptitude.

This I am seeing a lot. People with degrees not knowing how to remove comma's from a string.

The main question is why do you want the qualification? To help when looking for another job, or to round out your skill set?

Round out my skill set. And this is why I am questioning a BSC. Again "People with degrees not knowing how to remove comma's from a string"(this is just an example). So what is the use? I could read up on all the theory which I actually already do when something interests me or I need to read up on it for a specific project.

The main reason I recommend a BSc is all the extras, as well as just coding. I learnt about 7 programming languages, did maths, stats, cryptography, etc, etc. there are many modules, and you can mix and match as you want in third year. You can also combine the BCom IST major with a BSc, which has some project management stuff in it which is at least interesting, even if you are not interested in management. I found the mix has helped me in my career.

This I can agree with. I could learn a lot from some of the business modules.

 

[nickc]

Again "People with degrees not knowing how to remove comma's from a string"(this is just an example).

To be honest, I have no idea how these people pass a BSc, but it does seem to happen. Maybe they only know what they learn, and lack the ability to research. When I did my degree (finished 2005) it was difficult, there was a lot of work, and I learn a lot. Maybe things have changed since, maybe it's the choice of university, I don't know.

If you want to purely broaden your skill set, maybe get a hold of a Degree programme and find videos on the different subjects and learn that way.

Here's the UKZN programe:
http://www.cs.ukzn.ac.za/programmes.html

 

[Syzygy78]

Hi,

I have been a developer now for 7 years. Started out with T-sql and vb.net for 3 years. After that C# for 2. The last 2 years I have been employed as an RPG(IBM) and .Net developer. (Backend work mostly)

So now I am considering getting something other than Matric behind my name but do not know what. I was thinking about the BSC informatics. But I know people with BSC's that can not code. I know people without BSC's that makes a lot more money than I thought a dev could make even with a BSC.

So here is my question. Considering that I have been employed for 7 years as a developer. Do I study a degree or do I do a certification like MCSD and Java?

The one thing bothering me about the BSC is the fact that I will be 34-36(I am 30 now) when I finish if I start in January.

I do not see myself going into management in the near or far future. I love coding and most managers do not code. I will probably stay a coder all my life as this is what I like doing.

A lot of certifications have a shelf life. I would certainly get a degree.

Also if you ever consider working outside of the country, a degree is pretty much mandatory.

 

[shooter69]

Also if you ever consider working outside of the country, a degree is pretty much mandatory.

This is probably the only selling point for me at the moment.

 

[cguy]

This I am seeing a lot. People with degrees not knowing how to remove comma's from a string.

Round out my skill set. And this is why I am questioning a BSC. Again "People with degrees not knowing how to remove comma's from a string"(this is just an example).

There are two significant biases people have when talking about BSc or other degree holding folk. One is confirmation bias - they encounter one or two dummies, and come to the conclusion that most people with a BSc can't program, because that is what they currently believe (or would like to believe).

The second is selection bias - the probability that a non-degree holding person working with the upper percentiles of degree holding graduates is actually very small: There are many firms that require a relatively high minimum level of mathematical competency, which immediately disqualifies most non-degree holding developers. The better BSc graduates are also the ones that tend to have a high aptitude in maths, and are also more likely to leverage their skills and negotiate more lucrative positions at such companies, which is why they end up there. In essence, if someone without a degree is working in an environment with someone with a BSc, the person with the BSc, is probably selected from the lower end of the distribution.

To make the selection bias observation more concrete, think of the top tech companies, Google, Facebook, Amazon (Cape Town too), etc. almost every developer there has at least a B.Sc. or B.Eng. equivalent. These are the best graduates, and they work almost exclusively with degree holding colleagues. This removes the top guys from the pool of potential colleagues for most non-degree holding people. Basically, it is unlikely that you have ever seen top graduates work before, and it is likely that you have a very negatively skewed perspective of how the actual average graduate performs.

In my personal experience, as a competent programmer with a strong CS and Maths background, in nearly 20 years, I have never worked at a company where a vast majority of the developers didn't have degrees.

So what is the use? I could read up on all the theory which I actually already do when something interests me or I need to read up on it for a specific project.

You actually probably can't read up on the theory by yourself. Unless you are exceptionally gifted, the structure offered by a degree program allows you to work at a pace where you won't get bored, overwhelmed, confused about what's important and what's not, and think that you understand things that you don't actually understand. It also allows communication with classmates and lecturers, which is essential for more objective self-assessment, and clearing out conceptual barriers due to "incompatible" text (i.e., the author of your text book just doesn't word things the right way for you).

The "carrot" of the degree is an important psychological factor for pushing people to learn things they don't really want to learn, even though it lays the foundation to learn faster, and make more interesting advanced topics accessible. The degree tends to focus on topics that are by their very nature difficult to learn by yourself, and it deprioritizes topics that you could just pick up a reference manual for, or look up in Wikipedia or StackOverflow.

For me, doing CS and Maths in my BSc, was great - I never could have studied the maths on my own, and even though I could gain a superficial understanding of most of the CS stuff by myself, I never would have actually implemented a compiler or operating system, or designed a complex logic circuit, or studied automata theory by myself. Several of these have become key elements of my career.

 

[shooter69]

There are two significant biases people have when talking about BSc or other degree holding folk. One is confirmation bias - they encounter one or two dummies, and come to the conclusion that most people with a BSc can't program, because that is what they currently believe (or would like to believe).

The second is selection bias - the probability that a non-degree holding person working with the upper percentiles of degree holding graduates is actually very small: There are many firms that require a relatively high minimum level of mathematical competency, which immediately disqualifies most non-degree holding developers. The better BSc graduates are also the ones that tend to have a high aptitude in maths, and are also more likely to leverage their skills and negotiate more lucrative positions at such companies, which is why they end up there. In essence, if someone without a degree is working in an environment with someone with a BSc, the person with the BSc, is probably selected from the lower end of the distribution.

To make the selection bias observation more concrete, think of the top tech companies, Google, Facebook, Amazon (Cape Town too), etc. almost every developer there has at least a B.Sc. or B.Eng. equivalent. These are the best graduates, and they work almost exclusively with degree holding colleagues. This removes the top guys from the pool of potential colleagues for most non-degree holding people. Basically, it is unlikely that you have ever seen top graduates work before, and it is likely that you have a very negatively skewed perspective of how the actual average graduate performs.

In my personal experience, as a competent programmer with a strong CS and Maths background, in nearly 20 years, I have never worked at a company where a vast majority of the developers didn't have degrees.



You actually probably can't read up on the theory by yourself. Unless you are exceptionally gifted, the structure offered by a degree program allows you to work at a pace where you won't get bored, overwhelmed, confused about what's important and what's not, and think that you understand things that you don't actually understand. It also allows communication with classmates and lecturers, which is essential for more objective self-assessment, and clearing out conceptual barriers due to "incompatible" text (i.e., the author of your text book just doesn't word things the right way for you).

The "carrot" of the degree is an important psychological factor for pushing people to learn things they don't really want to learn, even though it lays the foundation to learn faster, and make more interesting advanced topics accessible. The degree tends to focus on topics that are by their very nature difficult to learn by yourself, and it deprioritizes topics that you could just pick up a reference manual for, or look up in Wikipedia or StackOverflow.

For me, doing CS and Maths in my BSc, was great - I never could have studied the maths on my own, and even though I could gain a superficial understanding of most of the CS stuff by myself, I never would have actually implemented a compiler or operating system, or designed a complex logic circuit, or studied automata theory by myself. Several of these have become key elements of my career.

All very valid and strong points. Thank you