Developers: are you aware of mapcodes?

[Foxhound5366]

I haven't phoned any call center recently but to change your address over the phone doesn't seem like something that would be implemented from a security point of view.

Wait what? You have never phoned for a car insurance premium quote and needed to provide both your work and home addresses ... only to invariably discover that when the policy arrives there are all sorts of creative typos included by the well-meaning call centre agent?

As for dependencies, how is converting a mapcode into an X,Y coordinate any different to geocoding a physical address in a standard format? Chances are if you're relying on Google Maps then your system is actually less dependent with mapcodes, because mapcode libraries can be self-hosted whereas Google Maps is hardly ever self-hosted.

Finally, the whole objection of 'Well I don't use mapcodes because nobody knows about them' is PRECISELY the point of this thread, and it's a very circular argument. How are consumers ever gonna know about them until more developers start implementing them? My intention with this thread was to figure out how many developers were aware of mapcodes and whether they had any practical objections to the system based on real technical experiences, and so far I haven't seen anything that seems remotely like that, have you?

Sorry if I'm sounding frustrated at you DaLion, I'm frustrated at this awesome open-source system not being used when it could so easily and at no cost apart from a few lines of code being added. I'm REALLY tired of wasting time entering addresses into mapping programs. I'm tired of businesses getting my address wrong. I'm tired of having to fill out lengthy physical address blocks on forms. It is such a ridiculous, pointless waste of time and innovation.

 

[DA-LION-619]

Wait what? You have never phoned for a car insurance premium quote and needed to provide both your work and home addresses ... only to invariably discover that when the policy arrives there are all sorts of creative typos included by the well-meaning call centre agent?

As for dependencies, how is converting a mapcode into an X,Y coordinate any different to geocoding a physical address in a standard format? Chances are if you're relying on Google Maps then your system is actually less dependent with mapcodes, because mapcode libraries can be self-hosted whereas Google Maps is hardly ever self-hosted.

Finally, the whole objection of 'Well I don't use mapcodes because nobody knows about them' is PRECISELY the point of this thread, and it's a very circular argument. How are consumers ever gonna know about them until more developers start implementing them? My intention with this thread was to figure out how many developers were aware of mapcodes and whether they had any practical objections to the system based on real technical experiences, and so far I haven't seen anything that seems remotely like that, have you?

Sorry if I'm sounding frustrated at you DaLion, I'm frustrated at this awesome open-source system not being used when it could so easily and at no cost apart from a few lines of code being added. I'm REALLY tired of wasting time entering addresses into mapping programs. I'm tired of businesses getting my address wrong. I'm tired of having to fill out lengthy physical address blocks on forms. It is such a ridiculous, pointless waste of time and innovation.

I did my insurance online, if I need something I email my broker. I haven't seen their offices.

Practically:
My scenario.
User enters address with auto complete, Google returns all the information needed. PlaceId, geo coordinates, formatted address, street, suburb, city, province, postal code etc.

Your scenario.
User enters map code(they might need to find). Covert that to geo ordinates, reverse it and provide a way to correct it and get all that info from Google.

 

[Foxhound5366]

Practically:
My scenario.
User enters address with auto complete, Google returns all the information needed. PlaceId, geo coordinates, formatted address, street, suburb, city, province, postal code etc.

Your scenario.
User enters map code(they might need to find). Covert that to geo ordinates, reverse it and provide a way to correct it and get all that info from Google.

You do realise that Google is doing one of the steps for you (the geocoding of the address into an X,Y coordinate) in the first scenario, and the user of your system is wasting a lot of their time to type out an address in the search box when they could have just entered a single code that fulfills the same purpose?

Ultimately there is no skin off your back either way, but you could save your user a lot of time. Also, like I've said, what about those times where Google gets it wrong (e.g. incorrect street name captured - and yes that does happen), or doesn't have enough data (either because there are NO formal addresses for that remote location or there are simply missing street numbers along a street)? What do you want your users to enter into the search box then? The nearest best alternative address that is recognised? How is that for accuracy?

Without getting too hung up on the small details, think about the big picture here. Think about the applications for communicating addresses to first responders during an emergency. Think about sending out teams of people to conduct surveys in townships where there are no formal addresses, but a simple app on the survey team member's cellphone can give them a mapcode for their precise location that they can write onto respondents' completed forms without the complexity of having to copy out a lat/long coordinate pair? Think about having the ability to guide people to the exact location of the main visitor's parking lot, rather than just the entrance to the whole corporate park and then leaving them to follow signboards from there?

How about the simple case where you want to visit a business you've never been been to before, and you can visit their website and only note down their mapcode and plug it into your TomTom GPS and drive straight there ... no fussing around with setting the city, the suburb and typing out a long street address (which the GPS might not recognise because that specific street has two different names on either end of it)?

Compared to the minimal investment of effort required from developers to support this (and I have personally seen this functionality added to existing 'track and dispatch' applications in less than a day - including interface updates), there are massive gains to be had to break away from our dependence on the same physical addresses we've been using since the beginning of time.

PS: Anybody who has visited the UK will know all about how postcodes there are linked to unique addresses, and you can navigate anywhere just by plugging a postcode of where you want to go into any GPS. It's an eye-opening experience.

 

[DA-LION-619]

You do realise that Google is doing one of the steps for you (the geocoding of the address into an X,Y coordinate) in the first scenario, and the user of your system is wasting a lot of their time to type out an address in the search box when they could have just entered a single code that fulfills the same purpose?

Based things such as your cookies, ip address etc. The search will probably give you your address if you've Google Maps before.

Ultimately there is no skin off your back either way, but you could save your user a lot of time. Also, like I've said, what about those times where Google gets it wrong (e.g. incorrect street name captured - and yes that does happen), or doesn't have enough data (either because there are NO formal addresses for that remote location or there are simply missing street numbers along a street)? What do you want your users to enter into the search box then? The nearest best alternative address that is recognised? How is that for accuracy?

You can still click on the map.

Without getting too hung up on the small details, think about the big picture here. Think about the applications for communicating addresses to first responders during an emergency. Think about sending out teams of people to conduct surveys in townships where there are no formal addresses, but a simple app on the survey team member's cellphone can give them a mapcode for their precise location that they can write onto respondents' completed forms without the complexity of having to copy out a lat/long coordinate pair? Think about having the ability to guide people to the exact location of the main visitor's parking lot, rather than just the entrance to the whole corporate park and then leaving them to follow signboards from there?

This is a very specific use case that wouldn't apply to the majority of users.

How about the simple case where you want to visit a business you've never been been to before, and you can visit their website and only note down their mapcode and plug it into your TomTom GPS and drive straight there ... no fussing around with setting the city, the suburb and typing out a long street address (which the GPS might not recognise because that specific street has two different names on either end of it)?

I visit new take aways from Facebook. Find their page on Facebook > Open their address in Google Maps > Get Uber from within Google Maps.

Compared to the minimal investment of effort required from developers to support this (and I have personally seen this functionality added to existing 'track and dispatch' applications in less than a day - including interface updates), there are massive gains to be had to break away from our dependence on the same physical addresses we've been using since the beginning of time.

Track and dispatch is a very unique case and map codes is probably a good idea in that situation. Especially if there's paperwork.

 

[Foxhound5366]

The thing is DaLion, if mapcodes help people deliver services, then ultimately it affects all of us. If you've made up your mind so firmly against it, I can only hope you'll reconsider one day. I've seen the value of mapcodes firsthand, so I know it works incredibly well. All the best with the development!

 

[Randy_The_Squirrel]

The thing is DaLion, if mapcodes help people deliver services, then ultimately it affects all of us. If you've made up your mind so firmly against it, I can only hope you'll reconsider one day. I've seen the value of mapcodes firsthand, so I know it works incredibly well. All the best with the development!

This has a very specific use case I am afraid. I am asking an expert in the field this question about whether this is just reinventing the wheel or if this is not the next big thing (TM). I will get back to you.

 

[etienne_marais]

Here are two quick questions for all software developers on here:
1: Are you aware of Mapcodes? [Introduction to Mapcodes]
2: If yes, are you already incorporating mapcodes as an alternative to addressing (or have plans to); and if not, why not? (e.g. do you have an alternative you prefer and why?)

I'm asking these questions because I really hate the inaccuracy and error-prone nature of long 'conventional' addresses, and with Mapcodes as a free public-domain global alternative I'd just love to know whether their introduction is being hampered by a general lack of awareness in the developer community; or whether developers have a preference for a different system (e.g. what3words).

Thanks for any insights into this!

To answer your question, no, I was not aware of mapcodes. Current projects would however not have much use for them.

 

[Foxhound5366]

This has a very specific use case I am afraid. I am asking an expert in the field this question about whether this is just reinventing the wheel or if this is not the next big thing (TM). I will get back to you.

Cool Randy, I look forward to hearing the feedback! I honestly don't see how this cannot be The Next Big Thing, simply if you look at all the numerous places that businesses AND private consumers are communicating lengthy physical addresses to each other.

Anybody in business will tell you how 'dirty' databases get, with typos, incomplete info or just 'best guesses'. It's not about profit for anybody because it's open source: it is simply about finally moving forward, getting the accuracy of GPS coordinates but in only 5-6 characters. If that's not a win for everybody, then I don't know what is.

 

[Foxhound5366]

To answer your question, no, I was not aware of mapcodes. Current projects would however not have much use for them.

Ok cool Etienne, so now that you know about them, IF you find a project that would benefit from them, would you consider implementing them or is there some other barrier to adoption for you?

Like I explained in my OP here I'm just really keen to understand this from a developer's point of view.

 

[etienne_marais]

Ok cool Etienne, so now that you know about them, IF you find a project that would benefit from them, would you consider implementing them or is there some other barrier to adoption for you?

Like I explained in my OP here I'm just really keen to understand this from a developer's point of view.

I would be skeptical, nothing wrong with the principle but I personally would be more comfortable with a widely accepted/known norm, depends on the project really.

 

[Foxhound5366]

I would be skeptical, nothing wrong with the principle but I personally would be more comfortable with a widely accepted/known norm, depends on the project really.

There we go with the circular principle again: I don't want to adopt this because it's not widely-adopted yet.

Innovation, it has to start somewhere. This is just the traditional inertia phase, but I believe it will end rapidly once it hits the tipping point.

 

[etienne_marais]

There we go with the circular principle again: I don't want to adopt this because it's not widely-adopted yet.

Innovation, it has to start somewhere. This is just the traditional inertia phase, but I believe it will end rapidly once it hits the tipping point.

True, perhaps a mindset change will boost ideas such as these from time to time. What I can tell you that from a developer viewpoint there are Loads of third party extensions and a great variety of gimmicks available, discernment is sometimes difficult and time consuming.

 

[konfab]

*facepalm* Did you not see where I asked *why* you prefer what3words to Mapcodes? [Here's the what3words link for anybody interested]

Take the what3words code I got when I opened the map randomly: amused.thunder.wins

I see many issues with that, from the number of characters, to ease with which words can be misheard (never mind the cultural implications of using English), and finally it doesn't seem very corporate to have (for example) the Head Office of FNB represented by amused.thunder.wins (do you see them putting *that* on their business cards?).

I like the concept of what3words. The clever part is it has automatic error checking built in as people will know that amsed.thunder.wns isn't a real address because most people can see that amsed and wns are not words.

 

[Foxhound5366]

I like the concept of what3words. The clever part is it has automatic error checking built in as people will know that amsed.thunder.wns isn't a real address because most people can see that amsed and wns are not words.

The truth is that in South Africa, we have a LOT of people who can't spell English words (even the English speakers themselves lol). Apart from the corporate image standpoint and string length standpoint I've already touched on, how clearly are non-first-language English speakers going to understand the critical address information being passed to them? Because mapcodes are so short you can still say 'Alpha Charlie Delta Dot Three Papa' and anybody should be able to interpret that as ACD.3P with a little bit of basic training. No amount of basic training is going to improve spelling on three longer words.

 

[Foxhound5366]

True, perhaps a mindset change will boost ideas such as these from time to time. What I can tell you that from a developer viewpoint there are Loads of third party extensions and a great variety of gimmicks available, discernment is sometimes difficult and time consuming.

This seems a lot more than a gimmick to me, Etienne. This much effort and time doesn't go into a gimmick:

(Fun fact, Pieter Geelen and Harold Goddijn are two of TomTom's founders -> which just explains that they know what they're talking about with mapping systems and why Mapcodes are already supported by TomTom)

From a technical standpoint I can't analyse the integrity of the source code that is freely available for download (click here if you missed the link earlier), all I know is that it works because I can test it and I've already seen it integrated successfully into enterprise applications in South Africa. Also it's my favourite way of entering addresses into my TomTom GPS, just because it's so short, and anecdotally I can also confirm that I've never been misdirected yet (when you generate a mapcode you get shown the location on a map and you can fine-tune it as you want).

If any developer here actually looks at the source code above, I'd be really interested to hear what it's like in your technical opinion.

 

[konfab]

The truth is that in South Africa, we have a LOT of people who can't spell English words (even the English speakers themselves lol). Apart from the corporate image standpoint and string length standpoint I've already touched on, how clearly are non-first-language English speakers going to understand the critical address information being passed to them? Because mapcodes are so short you can still say 'Alpha Charlie Delta Dot Three Papa' and anybody should be able to interpret that as ACD.3P with a little bit of basic training. No amount of basic training is going to improve spelling on three longer words.

1) You can do a mapcode in any language with sufficient vocab.
2) Mapcodes are not as simple as you say. ACD.3P can work in quite a few different areas around the world.
3) Finding corporate headquarters isn't the problem that needs to be addressed as they are large buildings with Google business listings. Finding someone's house for example is where I see such a system working.
4) Or you could just use these things called GPS coordinates which work on every platform (including the paper ones ).

 

[etienne_marais]

This seems a lot more than a gimmick to me, Etienne. This much effort and time doesn't go into a gimmick:
View attachment 412138
(Fun fact, Pieter Geelen and Harold Goddijn are two of TomTom's founders -> which just explains that they know what they're talking about with mapping systems and why Mapcodes are already supported by TomTom)

From a technical standpoint I can't analyse the integrity of the source code that is freely available for download (click here if you missed the link earlier), all I know is that it works because I can test it and I've already seen it integrated successfully into enterprise applications in South Africa. Also it's my favourite way of entering addresses into my TomTom GPS, just because it's so short, and anecdotally I can also confirm that I've never been misdirected yet (when you generate a mapcode you get shown the location on a map and you can fine-tune it as you want).

If any developer here actually looks at the source code above, I'd be really interested to hear what it's like in your technical opinion.

It boils down to awareness then, I did not mean to imply that it is a gimmick, it is the overwhelming amount of features, extensions and real gimmicks out there that may hamper adoption in that discernment is needed wading through everything out there. I will have a look at the code later though my guess is that it would be adequate.

 

[Foxhound5366]

1) You can do a mapcode in any language with sufficient vocab.
2) Mapcodes are not as simple as you say. ACD.3P can work in quite a few different areas around the world.
3) Finding corporate headquarters isn't the problem that needs to be addressed as they are large buildings with Google business listings. Finding someone's house for example is where I see such a system working.
4) Or you could just use these things called GPS coordinates which work on every platform (including the paper ones ).

I'm guessing you mean what3words to your first point, right?

It's true that mapcodes need a three character country specifier when working across mapcodes boundaries (I'd already mentioned that), but for practical purposes most business uses will be within the same mapcode region so abbreviations can feasibly be used where it's a necessity. Even with a 'ZAF' precursor, mapcodes are still shorter and easier to transmit than both GPS coordinates and what3words, right?

For your fourth point, I've already listed several examples where GPS coordinates wouldn't be as efficient to use (they're fine for machine-machine interaction but generally too complex and prone to errors with human-machine-human interactions).

 

[Foxhound5366]

It boils down to awareness then, I did not mean to imply that it is a gimmick, it is the overwhelming amount of features, extensions and real gimmicks out there that may hamper adoption in that discernment is needed wading through everything out there. I will have a look at the code later though my guess is that it would be adequate.

Awesome, I'm keen to hear your thoughts on it. Awareness can easily be raised, so long as there is a strong business case.

 

[Yster21]

I think this is a pretty cool thing to use, and far more convenient and efficient than giving an entire address or GPS coordinates.

I also can't see a good reason why map codes can't be incorporated into Google Maps. A few people will start using it, and awareness of this format of address will quickly propagate. I think it's exactly what we need.

Also, no I didn't know it existed.