did quotas fail this sa cricket team?

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milomak

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i thin not

but i'd like to hear what others think
 
I think it's a structural failing in cricket south Africa. Incompetent corrupt crooks running the show, taking fat salaries and wasting money while completely neglecting grass roots development
 
No.

We are clearly not developing players the way we used to. We've effectively exited a golden generation and have nobody else coming through or at least nobody has put their hands up. We have also selected players on reputation and not form; notably Hashim Amla and JP Duminy. They are simply not the players they once were and this has weakened us.

Another major issue has been our inability to develop/unearth a quality all-rounder. This is an area where we have always been strong, with the likes of Brian McMillan, Hansie Cronje, Shaun Pollock, Lance Klusener and Jacques Kallis. At a time we could get four of these guys in one team at the same time. This greatly extended our batting and also added options with the ball and all of them could chip in and reliably so. When we had Pollock and Donald leading our attack, guys like Klusener and Kallis would back them up with solid spells and then still go and get 30,40,50,60 runs each. We just haven't produced that sort of quality for a while now.
 
I wouldn't blame it on quotas. If you really want to get into the thick of black and white, our black players have often showed more fight (especially with the bat) than our white players.

I've enjoyed watching Phehlukwayo bat - he has an attitude and fighting spirit that none of our top order has shown throughout this entire world cup. The lad always comes out ready for a contest.

Tahir - not sure how much quotas have influenced his selection - has been a similar example. How he celebrated his catch yesterday is a testament to his enjoyment of the game. Something that, once again, is lacking from our other players.

Unfortunately, bowling aside, by the time either of these guys are at the crease, it's usually too late for them to have much of an influence, and our 'seniors' have already more or less lost the game for us.

What you have here is a group of players that can't perform when the pressure is on. Miller is outstanding in a dead rubber game. Put him in a 100-from-70 knockout game and he withers.

We don't know how to pace ourselves when the pressure is on. When we try to consolidate to keep wickets from falling, we pull a 38/1 after 10, chasing 300+. When we do eventually try and play some shots, we pull a de Kock and needlessly, stupidly give a wicket away - not due to good bowling, but over-eager, bad decision making.

It boggles the mind.
 
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I though about the Proteas of old.. from a couple decades ago all the way up to about 5 years ago..
Consider:
Kirsten, Hudson, Cullinan, Cronje, Rhodes, Wessels, Richardson, McMillan, De villiers, Ntini, Symcox, Donald..
Add Klusener, Steyn, Amla (in form), AB, and so many others... the current team are just not up to the names above. not even in the same league... Duminy has nothing on the people he succeeded.

No, nothing to do with quotas or race, it's got to do with lack of grassroots development.
 
It’s a case of bad resource management.. even with those big names there were issues as they never performed at peak at the same time with some rare exceptions.

As I mentioned in the previous thread, the issue is multi-fold.. number games played vs good opposition and rotation of players at senior level.

Then on the development of newer players.. it feels like either they not producing the great players of the past or talent just isn’t there.. quotas hasn’t been an issue In like forever.
 
in my personal opinion yes. but not where it is obvious.

the quota system has lead potentially fantastic players not get games, so the player leaves the country before any of us learn the name. and then 15 years later they hit a 6 off Dale steyn to win NZ the game.

that is the one problem. the other problem is the workload of the players. and I am not blaming IPL or the drive to make money. I think the players need to go out and make money in the IPL so they do not take a kolpak deal.

Where the Quota system has cost us the most is in the Ferhaan Berhadiens.

you look at Berhadien in the domestic cricket and you think "man how is this guy not getting picked!" and then you look at him at international level and you think "isnt there a bowler for the easterns u19 team we could send in to bat instead?"

how is the quota system to blame for that? we fast track amazing talent (KG and Ngidi) to make quota so they do not test domestic players, so the weak group look stronger when you look at just numbers.

The other problem is the Kevin Petersen Problem. that is not really something any nation can do anything against, but we are seeing the same problem come in Pakistan and Sri Lanka. only there is no player leaving for another country, the players simply change careers.

for contex, look at KP when he made the call to leave. he did not leave because of Quota, he left because he was too far down the line and you cant fault him for his choice. so you are a 21 year old KP. looking at the National team. Smith, AB, Hash, Kallis, Gibbs, Kirsten still playing. he has no chance. there are complete legends of the game and while he himself is one he will always be a third choice.



All of this has lead to the situation we find ourselves in now.
are we missing a decent all rounder? yes because he is likely working as a doctor, or playing county cricket.
are we missing more quality fast bowlers? we are but that is due to injury both to the new blood coming in, to the old gaurd going out, and this has lead to the dynamic being off in the department. I do not fault Lungi and KG, the burden is too great on them at the moment.

are we mising an opener? no we have markram, Hendriks, QDK all fighting to take the charge. Reliance on Hash lead to not enough game time for the rest to become used to the stress of opening. Markram should have been opening with Hash a year ago already, with QDK playing his natural game at number 4.

do we have an "AB SIZED HOLE" yes, obviously, he is one of the greatest players this country has ever produced, I cant fault him for retiring the writing was on the wall for this world cup when the doctor asked Steyn if he was in a Motorcyle accident. but the problem in the middle order has nothing to do with AB leaving. we have had a weak middle order since Kallis retired. we have been trying to fill the space with mediocure players beliving in weaksause players like berhadien, Miller, JP Dumminy, Niel McKenzy and other nameless faces that have come and gone thought that middle order. there have only been in the history of South African cricket 7 true middle order batsmen. AB, Faf,Kallis,Cronje, Cullinan and Mark Boucher.
you may disagree and thow out other names, but no, they are not the calm level headed players, that can change how they play depending on the situation. cement the innings as a number 3 when the opening bowlers from the other team did their job. keep calm and tie an innings together in 11-40 when the pressure is on.

we have had greats like Klusner, Pollock, Richardson, MacMillan,Rhodes and the list goes on that fill a different role at the back of the middle order, but what we are always missing is that middle order that scares opponents.


in 4 years when there is another world cup we will look back, and think about how QDK, KG, Ngidi (if he hasnt retired permanantly due to injury), Markram have performed, and we will lament our lack of an all rounder (andile wont be around) we will lament our weak middle order and we will talk about how we cant play spin, and how we do not have a great spinner in our team.

the sad thing is, the quota system will be forgoten, the discussions of this thread will be forgotten, and the blame will go to poor Mark Boucher who will be sacked as the coach.

how do we solve the problem? we convince the public to care more about domestic cricket. we gain traction to get more people at games. so we get to help the local players play on bigger stages, let the grounds have better budgets, so local players have more incentive to stay, and create a cricket culture.

we were great in the early 90's because local cricket was all we had, so the competition was strong. those times are gone. we need to rebuild the culture, so the team of 2027 stands a chance to lift the trophy.
 
Nemus said:
I though about the Proteas of old.. from a couple decades ago all the way up to about 5 years ago..
Consider:
Kirsten, Hudson, Cullinan, Cronje, Rhodes, Wessels, Richardson, McMillan, De villiers, Ntini, Symcox, Donald..
Add Klusener, Steyn, Amla (in form), AB, and so many others... the current team are just not up to the names above. not even in the same league... Duminy has nothing on the people he succeeded.

No, nothing to do with quotas or race, it's got to do with lack of grassroots development.
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I dont think grassroots is the issue. The top schools have the same types of kids they always had.

Problems come in when they get out of school and run into a brick wall quota system. That stops so many potential stars from coming through.

We get stuck with a diminished talent pool and inconsistent b grade players.

Add to the fact we picked players who were not in form and you have a perfect storm for a rubbish team
 
Who knows. But with a discriminatory system such as this in place, the question will never go away.
 
Rabobi said:
I dont think grassroots is the issue. The top schools have the same types of kids they always had.

Problems come in when they get out of school and run into a brick wall quota system. That stops so many potential stars from coming through.

We get stuck with a diminished talent pool and inconsistent b grade players.

Add to the fact we picked players who were not in form and you have a perfect storm for a rubbish team
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--or leaving and qualify to play for another country.
 
yebocan said:
--or leaving and qualify to play for another country.
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They'd leave either way as they stand to earn a lot more then. Especially these middling types who can't make money off of T20s and such but can get in overseas nations
 
I think SA's greater political issues have had more to do with losing players than quotas.

Read between the lines what Duanne Olivier said. He never left because of quotas, he left because he sees no future for the kid(s) he wants to raise in the near future. He is looking beyond cricket. This sentiment is likely to be echoed by any young professional you'll meet.

I'd add this to my early post. We are not developing players and if we do, we risk losing them to factors outside cricket.

Money is also a factor, which Kyle Abbott touched on. So much more than quotas.
 
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I met a boy last year, he is white, he goes to school in India somewhere, only because he is good in cricket, and was not chosen here.
 
What really hurt South African cricket is Franchise cricket. There's only 6 franchises which means there's a limited amount of slots available for young talent and as a result many talented young players falling through the cracks
 
milomak said:
i thin not

but i'd like to hear what others think
Click to expand...
No, not this particular team. This team, as a unit, seemingly went off the boil for some or other reason not related to quotas. The black incumbents are world class and I believe they are deserving of their place on merit alone. Yes, Some are old in the tooth, but it's not like we have a slew of talented youngsters vying for positions, black or white. Which is why I make the following statement.

It's this quota system, particularly at the lower level - albeit ideologically fanciful - that's caused an upset in what was once a natural rising of cream. This equality of outcome cremora-cream merely provides an artificial substitute. That, there's no debate.

Unless there are some freakishly brilliant, yet always rare, talent lurking about, and as time ticks, cricket SA will manifest into a Zim V2.0 team. No doubt.

In conclusion, quotas will product excellent black players. But it comes at a cost to the game as a whole.
 
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