Do executions deter would-be murderers?

I would say that in the case of premeditated murder, the murderer would have taken the consequences of his/her intended crime into consideration before acting. The penalty could well deter the action.

Interesting look at capital punishment as a deterrent in England several hundred years ago
http://www.dur.ac.uk/4schools/Crime/Bloodycode.htm.
These were the days before the introduction of police forces. The wealthy made the laws that protected their own interests and property. Almost anything deemed as a felony today was punishable by death back then.

The "Bloody Code" was the name given to the English legal system from the late 17th century to the early 19th century. It was so named because of the huge numbers of crimes for which the death penalty could be imposed. By 1815 there were 225 crimes that carried the death penalty compared with 50 in 1688.

Some of the crimes carrying the death penalty in the 1700s
  • stealing horses or sheep
  • destroying turnpike roads
  • cutting down trees
  • pickpocketing goods worth more than one shilling
  • being out at night with a blackened face
  • unmarried mother concealing a stillborn child
  • arson
  • forgery
  • stealing from a rabbit warren
  • murder
 
2: Mistakes. I'm very disturbed at the number of death-row or life prisoners in the US that have been freed in the

last few years due to new DNA evidence. It's relatively easy to free and compensate a guy for a mistake. Not so

easy when he's dead.
What is even more disturbing is the how willing supporters of the death penalty are to kill those who are not

guilty. In the US the authorities have had to be dragged kicking and screaming to get them to do something.

Prosecutors show no remorse for their mistakes. The authorities have no willingness to press charges when

convictions have occurred due to negligence or worse deliberate omission by prosecutors and the police. Many

people have been convicted on the flimsiest evidence.

Fingerprints - the US authorities were strongly opposed to research into the error rate of fingerprint matching and setting standards for the minimum number of points required to consider two prints a match.

DNA - the bigger your DNA database the higher the likelihood of an a false match. Any country that builds a large database is going to get false positives.

Witnesses - human memory and perception are demonstrably unreliable. The police are known for asking questions in a manner intended to illicit the answer they're seeking.

Prosecutor and police misconduct - they've been known to become fixated on a particular suspect, ignoring evidence to the contrary. They've also been known to lie and cover up evidence to get someone convicted.
 
How is killing people going to make a difference in this country? First they have to have an excellent chance of getting caught. Second they have to have an excellent chance of being convicted. Third you have to assume that criminals who commit seriour violent crimes consider these things before they commit the crime. If every criminal who was going to murder someone was absolutely certain they'd get caught and then spend 25 years in jail would they still go ahead and do it, considering themselves to be getting away with it because they won't get executed?

There is no evidence that the death penalty prevents murders. Or that it is a necessary condition to have a low murder rate. If this were so, then US states that execute people would have the lowest murder rates in the world.

The only conditions under which it would be acceptable to re-introduce execution in South Africa is if there are consequences for errors, both the police and prosecutors, as well as those who want it introduced. When we are willing to execute members of these groups as punishment for mistakes, then we can consider it. Obviously their assets will also be transferred to the family of the person wrongfully executed.
 
The prison system is wholly inadequate.

Petty offenders should be sent to Kibbutz type systems - especially non-violent, first time offenders (let us say mother of 5 convicted of stealing a chicken from a supermarket). Work, study, be released or stay on as they see fit. Prison systems where these types of criminals get "out of prison" work is fairly common.

The greater the offense, so the type of work and security increase.
We can have empty tracts of land slated for RDP houses be the site for more hardened criminals - say first offenders for more serious crimes. Brick laying, road building etc.

That should free up the prisons for the housing of the people that need to be permanently locked away - murderers, rapists, repeat offenders and so on.

Using the above as a basis, "petty" offenders will never need to turn to crime as a "way out" since they will have an option or have acquired skills while serving their time.
 
I don't think they are that much of a deterrent, but executions certainly do solve part of the problem.
 
In first and third world countries YES! in South Africa, NO! because they are violent and barbaric by nature, history is prove of that.
 
Two reasons.

1: It's cheaper than executing them.
2: Mistakes. I'm very disturbed at the number of death-row or life prisoners in the US that have been freed in the last few years due to new DNA evidence. It's relatively easy to free and compensate a guy for a mistake. Not so easy when he's dead.

How is keeping some scumbag in prison for the rest of their miserable life cheaper than a 1 x 7.62 round to the back of the head?
Mistakes, yup they happen and one must be vigilant in minimising them as much as possible.
 
Some of the crimes carrying the death penalty in the 1700s
  • stealing horses or sheep
  • destroying turnpike roads
  • cutting down trees
  • pickpocketing goods worth more than one shilling
  • being out at night with a blackened face
  • unmarried mother concealing a stillborn child
  • arson
  • forgery
  • stealing from a rabbit warren
  • murder
I wonder if many murders were caused by these laws? Afterall if you're going to be executed anyway you might as well kill as many people as necessary to avoid capture.
 
Another factor is money - poor people are far more likely to get executed.
 
Another factor is money - poor people are far more likely to get executed.

o for sure.
But , in SA terms, the poor are also more likely to murder anonymously.
The wealthy kill their own.

While that may sound callous, I am certain I am not going to be killed by my family, but am not at all confident that somebody is not going to jump my wall and kill me for my pool cleaner.
 
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19160965/
Each execution deters an average of 18 murders, according to a 2003 nationwide study by professors at Emory University.

According to stats in the US, there's no correlation between murder rates in states with the death penalty vs those without. Same applies to different countries.

This would imply that the death penalty has no deterring effect - and why would it? Most deliverate criminals think they're not going to get caught, and criminals of passion aren't thinking about consequences.

Two completely different views here. I wonder which is correct. You might be interested in an extract from a book, Freakanomics, by a rogue economist named Steven Levitt. He explores the hidden side of everything and comes up with an intriguing theory on why crime suddenly took a massive dip in the USA when all experts were predicting a massive rise. Having read this, I wonder how some experts can have diametrically opposing viewpoints with one saying there is a proven link that capital punishment acts as a deterrent and another saying that the stats prove no correlation. Are these experts asking the right questions before they arrive at their conclusions? Surely there must be a conclusive and difinitive answer?

Anyone living in the United States in the early 1990s and paying even a whisper of attention to the nightly news or a daily paper could be forgiven for having been scared out of his skin.
The culprit was crime. It had been rising relentlessly—a graph plotting the crime rate in any American city over recent decades looked like a ski slope in profile—and it seemed now to herald the end of the world as we knew it. Death by gunfire, intentional and otherwise, had become commonplace. So too had carjacking and crack dealing, robbery and rape. Violent crime was a gruesome, constant companion. And things were about to get even worse. Much worse. All the experts were saying so.
The cause was the so-called superpredator. For a time, he was everywhere. Glowering from the cover of newsweeklies. Swaggering his way through foot-thick government reports. He was a scrawny, big-city teenager with a cheap gun in his hand and nothing in his heart but ruthlessness. There were thousands out there just like him, we were told, a generation of killers about to hurl the country into deepest chaos.
In 1995 the criminologist James Alan Fox wrote a report for the U.S. attorney general that grimly detailed the coming spike in murders by teenagers. Fox proposed optimistic and pessimistic scenarios. In the optimistic scenario, he believed, the rate of teen homicides would rise another 15 percent over the next decade; in the pessimistic scenario, it would more than double. “The next crime wave will get so bad,” he said, “that it will make 1995 look like the good old days.”
Other criminologists, political scientists, and similarly learned forecasters laid out the same horrible future, as did President Clinton. “We know we’ve got about six years to turn this juvenile crime thing around,” Clinton said, “or our country is going to be living with chaos. And my successors will not be giving speeches about the wonderful opportunities of the global economy; they’ll be trying to keep body and soul together for people on the streets of these cities.” The smart money was plainly on the criminals.
And then, instead of going up and up and up, crime began to fall. And fall and fall and fall some more. The crime drop was startling in several respects. It was ubiquitous, with every category of crime falling in every part of the country. It was persistent, with incremental decreases year after year. And it was entirely unanticipated—especially by the very experts who had been predicting the opposite.
The magnitude of the reversal was astounding. The teenage murder rate, instead of rising 100 percent or even 15 percent as James Alan Fox had warned, fell more than 50 percent within five years. By 2000 the overall murder rate in the United States had dropped to its lowest level in thirty-five years. So had the rate of just about every other sort of crime, from assault to car theft.
Even though the experts had failed to anticipate the crime drop—which was in fact well under way even as they made their horrifying predictions—they now hurried to explain it. Most of their theories sounded perfectly logical. It was the roaring 1990s economy, they said, that helped turn back crime. It was the proliferation of gun control laws, they said. It was the sort of innovative policing strategies put into place in New York City, where murders would fall from 2,245 in 1990 to 596 in 2003.
These theories were not only logical; they were also encouraging, for they attributed the crime drop to specific and recent human initiatives. If it was gun control and clever police strategies and better-paying jobs that quelled crime—well then, the power to stop criminals had been within our reach all along. As it would be the next time, God forbid, that crime got so bad.
These theories made their way, seemingly without question, from the experts’ mouths to journalists’ ears to the public’s mind. In short course, they became conventional wisdom.
There was only one problem: they weren’t true.
There was another factor, meanwhile, that had greatly contributed to the massive crime drop of the 1990s. It had taken shape more than twenty years earlier and concerned a young woman in Dallas named Norma McCorvey.
Like the proverbial butterfly that flaps its wings on one continent and eventually causes a hurricane on another, Norma McCorvey dramatically altered the course of events without intending to. All she had wanted was an abortion. She was a poor, uneducated, unskilled, alcoholic, drug-using twenty-one-year-old woman who had already given up two children for adoption and now, in 1970, found herself pregnant again. But in Texas, as in all but a few states at that time, abortion was illegal. McCorvey’s cause came to be adopted by people far more powerful than she. They made her the lead plaintiff in a class-action lawsuit seeking to legalize abortion. The defendant was Henry Wade, the Dallas County district attorney. The case ultimately made it to the U.S. Supreme Court, by which time McCorvey’s name had been disguised as Jane Roe. On January 22, 1973, the court ruled in favor of Ms. Roe, allowing legalized abortion throughout the country. By this time, of course, it was far too late for Ms. McCorvey/Roe to have her abortion. She had given birth and put the child up for adoption. (Years later she would renounce her allegiance to legalized abortion and become a pro-life activist.)
So how did Roe v. Wade help trigger, a generation later, the greatest crime drop in recorded history?
As far as crime is concerned, it turns out that not all children are born equal. Not even close. Decades of studies have shown that a child born into an adverse family environment is far more likely than other children to become a criminal. And the millions of women most likely to have an abortion in the wake of Roe v. Wade—poor, unmarried, and teenage mothers for whom illegal abortions had been too expensive or too hard to get—were often models of adversity. They were the very women whose children, if born, would have been much more likely than average to become criminals. But because of Roe v. Wade, these children weren’t being born. This powerful cause would have a drastic, distant effect: years later, just as these unborn children would have entered their criminal primes, the rate of crime began to plummet.
It wasn’t gun control or a strong economy or new police strategies that finally blunted the American crime wave. It was, among other factors, the reality that the pool of potential criminals had dramatically shrunk.
Now, as the crime-drop experts (the former crime doomsayers) spun their theories to the media, how many times did they cite legalized abortion as a cause?
Zero.
 
I say "Van Hulle and Hang Hulle"

Crime is not a nuicance, or bad, its completely out of control. We have the highest murder rate IN THE WORLD! Obviously a bit of jail time aint deterring these criminals.

We have to pay for some scumbag to sit in jail and get 3 meals a day for the rest of his life after he murdered someone. Hanging them will save money, im sure you can even re-use ropes.
 
How is keeping some scumbag in prison for the rest of their miserable life cheaper than a 1 x 7.62 round to the back of the head?

So, if I understand you correctly, since cost are an important issue, there's no need to waste money on trials and lawyers, and even investigators. If someone looks guilty, shoot them!
 
Two completely different views here. I wonder which is correct. You might be interested in an extract from a book, Freakanomics, by a rogue economist named Steven Levitt. He explores the hidden side of everything and comes up with an intriguing theory on why crime suddenly took a massive dip in the USA when all experts were predicting a massive rise.

I found the chapter in Freakonomics really interesting, I must say; lots of food for thought.

I would be perfectly happy for a deather penalty in a perfect world where we have indisputable evidence; we don't have that though, and I would far rather err on the side of caution.
 
looked like a ski slope in profile
You have to be wary of these graphs. They're often deliberately drawn in a manner intended to distort the facts.
 
So, if I understand you correctly, since cost are an important issue, there's no need to waste money on trials and lawyers, and even investigators. If someone looks guilty, shoot them!

In fairness, you may have read too much into what he said.
 
I found the chapter in Freakonomics really interesting, I must say; lots of food for thought.

I would be perfectly happy for a deather penalty in a perfect world where we have indisputable evidence; we don't have that though, and I would far rather err on the side of caution.

It seems to me that the experts might not be impartial and have their own agendas. One expert might be pro-execution and cuts the stats to prove that execution is a deterrent. Another might be anti-execution and so sets out to prove that it is not a deterrent. It is an emotive topic and I agree with you that that we should err on the side of caution.

Steven Levitt's Freakonomics illustates how experts try to explain phenomenons with logical answers which, on the surface, appear quite plausible and are sold on to the public wholesale.
 
In fairness, you may have read too much into what he said.

Not at all, I was just extrapolating to extreme. The reason executionsare more expensive the life sentences are because of the greater legal costs and separate imprisonment while waiting for execution. The reason legal costs are higher are because of the greater care needed to avoid mistakes (and even that apparently is not nearly enough). If that's too expensive, surely it makes sense to minimise all these annoying legal costs?
 
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