Dota 2

[randomgamer]

http://www.dotabuff.com/players/87505789

bs picker :0 !

 

[pixel_ninja]

bs picker :0 !

Hey that was before his r̶e̶w̶o̶r̶k̶ buff. Why isnt there a list of steam ID's on the front page and a MyBB clan? Make it happen people, I got to the party late so I've just seen it now, I've no real estate on that front page

 

[porchrat]

Hey that was before his r̶e̶w̶o̶r̶k̶ buff. Why isnt there a list of steam ID's on the front page and a MyBB clan? Make it happen people, I got to the party late so I've just seen it now, I've no real estate on that front page

PM your steam name I will add you to the group. That way you will have the list of all the MyBB folks.

 

[The Voice]

You clearly don't understand how matchmaking works, so I'll explain it one last time for those that missed it.

5 players per team (lets work on total 10k mmr)

Radiant players (will use this as your 3 stack team)
1: 3000
2: 2500
3:2000
4:1500
5:1000

Dire Team:
1:2500
2:2300
3:2300
4:2000
5:1500

These are just random numbers to make up 10k, but that is pretty much how it works. It is however a lot worse on SA servers due to the small number of active players.

Take for example early mornings, you might end up with one 5k player paired with a 1k player. The main goal of matchmaking is to combine all 5 players on a teams mmr so that it matches as closely as possible their enemies combined mmr.

It's really that simple

These figured dramatically improve on EU servers, you will pretty much always end up playing with people on your own skill level, unless they smurfing, which happens now and again.

I clearly do - see my chess ranking explanation earlier in this thread, which is where MMR comes from. I'm not specifically referring to ranked matches (which wouldn't include SA, anyway - our ranked is dead). I'm talking about regular matchmaking during peak gaming hours. You mean to tell me out of the thousands of people playing Dota that the algorithm selected a total noob for each team, and teamed them up with comparatively vastly experienced players? If your answer is "yes" then the matchmaking system IS severely broken. And with experience I mean hours played and win rate - we're all 50% and above.

The guy we played with had only racked up about 70hrs and made too many mistakes to be a smurf. It's unlikely that his win rate could've been close to ours, so there's really no explanation why we were grouped with him.

Ranked matches do indeed (well supposedly, anyway) work as you say, with teams being "evenly" balanced - it still works on the total MMR, and not the individual MMR - so your lowest could be 1k, while the other team's is 2k (may not seem like it, but that can be a substantial difference in skill). As long as the team totals are close enough, it's "balanced".

 

[Purply]

Rank and pub games both are based on mmr , unfortunately you not able to see your "unknown mmr" anymore since valve fixed that "bug"a couple years back.

For avg user base on SA servers check here https://rjackson.me/tools/mmstats/

(It would appear these stats no longer update after Reborn was switched to main client)

Based on those stats SA peaks at around 230 players searching for a match at the same time, which is next to nothing compared to EU which is roughly 1800 players.

So basically during peak times in SA we have roughly 20 games of Dota running at the same time.

Hope that explains it a bit more.

 

[zll]

I clearly do - see my chess ranking explanation earlier in this thread, which is where MMR comes from. I'm not specifically referring to ranked matches (which wouldn't include SA, anyway - our ranked is dead). I'm talking about regular matchmaking during peak gaming hours. You mean to tell me out of the thousands of people playing Dota that the algorithm selected a total noob for each team, and teamed them up with comparatively vastly experienced players? If your answer is "yes" then the matchmaking system IS severely broken. And with experience I mean hours played and win rate - we're all 50% and above.

The guy we played with had only racked up about 70hrs and made too many mistakes to be a smurf. It's unlikely that his win rate could've been close to ours, so there's really no explanation why we were grouped with him.

Ranked matches do indeed (well supposedly, anyway) work as you say, with teams being "evenly" balanced - it still works on the total MMR, and not the individual MMR - so your lowest could be 1k, while the other team's is 2k (may not seem like it, but that can be a substantial difference in skill). As long as the team totals are close enough, it's "balanced".

Low population games always have this problem. The game will attempt to even out the teams, but in reality if there's 3 good players and 7 noobs, or 9 good players and 1 noob, or whatever the case is, chances are one of the teams will get the short end of the stick.

If you want to avoid this problem play on EU (either ranked or normals).

 

[The Voice]

Low population games always have this problem. The game will attempt to even out the teams, but in reality if there's 3 good players and 7 noobs, or 9 good players and 1 noob, or whatever the case is, chances are one of the teams will get the short end of the stick.

If you want to avoid this problem play on EU (either ranked or normals).

Thanks for the explanations, guys - I always assumed that the MMR rules only applied to ranked matchmaking, and not normal. Yeah, I play ranked/normal on EU West every now and then - matches pop almost instantly, and I've even added a few names to my friends list.

 

[HDS]

I clearly do - see my chess ranking explanation earlier in this thread, which is where MMR comes from. I'm not specifically referring to ranked matches (which wouldn't include SA, anyway - our ranked is dead). I'm talking about regular matchmaking during peak gaming hours. You mean to tell me out of the thousands of people playing Dota that the algorithm selected a total noob for each team, and teamed them up with comparatively vastly experienced players? If your answer is "yes" then the matchmaking system IS severely broken. And with experience I mean hours played and win rate - we're all 50% and above.

The guy we played with had only racked up about 70hrs and made too many mistakes to be a smurf. It's unlikely that his win rate could've been close to ours, so there's really no explanation why we were grouped with him.

Ranked matches do indeed (well supposedly, anyway) work as you say, with teams being "evenly" balanced - it still works on the total MMR, and not the individual MMR - so your lowest could be 1k, while the other team's is 2k (may not seem like it, but that can be a substantial difference in skill). As long as the team totals are close enough, it's "balanced".

How long was your search time for that game?

 

[Purply]

In my experience Ranked EU matches, no matter time of day, usually happens within 5 minutes.

 

[Shard]

Anyone else having issues just finding a match? The timer seems to reset it itself randomly, and I start over from 00:00, but never find anything on any game mode.

Exiting and restarting Dota 2 fixes this, I restart Steam too for good measure. Fixed it twice now using this method, once with a 5 man party too.

 

[Shard]

Low population games always have this problem. The game will attempt to even out the teams, but in reality if there's 3 good players and 7 noobs, or 9 good players and 1 noob, or whatever the case is, chances are one of the teams will get the short end of the stick.

If you want to avoid this problem play on EU (either ranked or normals).

Low pop is always a problem, I have an app that pulls in DotaBuff stats for games. Based on the stats I can see alot of patterns in the MM algo. The major one is, it will always prefer matching stacks, i.e. 3 man to 3 man or 5 man to lower MMR 4 man + a solo etc. Instead of matching 5 solo with the same MMR as the 5 stack.

 

[Y'all Qaeda]

Low pop is always a problem, I have an app that pulls in DotaBuff stats for games. Based on the stats I can see alot of patterns in the MM algo. The major one is, it will always prefer matching stacks, i.e. 3 man to 3 man or 5 man to lower MMR 4 man + a solo etc. Instead of matching 5 solo with the same MMR as the 5 stack.

Sharing is caring.

 

[pixel_ninja]

Low pop is always a problem, I have an app that pulls in DotaBuff stats for games. Based on the stats I can see alot of patterns in the MM algo. The major one is, it will always prefer matching stacks, i.e. 3 man to 3 man or 5 man to lower MMR 4 man + a solo etc. Instead of matching 5 solo with the same MMR as the 5 stack.

I thought that the combined mmr for the 4man stack and solo would ideally be higher than that of the combined mmr for the 5 man. This was explained by a d2 dev saying that stacks = co-operation which is worth X additional mmr.

 

[Shard]

Sharing is caring.

ye, sorry its not working for reborn, need to see if it can be updated. Friend dev'd it up

 

[Shard]

I thought that the combined mmr for the 4man stack and solo would ideally be higher than that of the combined mmr for the 5 man. This was explained by a d2 dev saying that stacks = co-operation which is worth X additional mmr.

I agree, but thats not what happening in practice on our servers. Our MM is clearly broken.

Every EU game I play (without a bot or smurf) is well balanced. Especially if we take an SA 5 man onto it.

 

[pixel_ninja]

I agree, but thats not what happening in practice on our servers. Our MM is clearly broken.

Every EU game I play (without a bot or smurf) is well balanced. Especially if we take an SA 5 man onto it.

And you say that based on what? A defunct piece of software which you wont show anyone? I don't see how you can say the MM is broken for us but not for EU? It's the same algorithm? The problem is that we are too small of a community to get 9 players within 50 MMR points of your own rating into a game when you queue, unless maybe you are at the center of the bell curve (ie: dead average)

The fact that we have a varying skillcap in any given game means that you will get a normal skill player who calls a core role (carry/mid), and may not necessarily have the skillset for the higher ranked game.

I still maintain that 90% of these stomps are due to poor planning in the picking phase. If teams could co-ordinate a bit better it would go a long way to stopping a 20min stomp.

2c

 

[porchrat]

And you say that based on what? A defunct piece of software which you wont show anyone? I don't see how you can say the MM is broken for us but not for EU? It's the same algorithm? The problem is that we are too small of a community to get 9 players within 50 MMR points of your own rating into a game when you queue, unless maybe you are at the center of the bell curve (ie: dead average)

The fact that we have a varying skillcap in any given game means that you will get a normal skill player who calls a core role (carry/mid), and may not necessarily have the skillset for the higher ranked game.

I still maintain that 90% of these stomps are due to poor planning in the picking phase. If teams could co-ordinate a bit better it would go a long way to stopping a 20min stomp.

2c

I think this is what people are saying. I don't think there is much wrong with the algorithm itself, simply that in the case of SA it has to do a sort of "best fit" and that leads to problems. As an example of just how screwed up MM can be I once created a smurf account so I could play with a friend in his first game ever and not have my higher MMR attract a bunch of crazy experienced players to stomp him. I was going to play his support and help him through his lane. Just make sure he had a good time. Everybody in our party with the exception of me was playing their first ever game of Dota.

We were matched against people with on average 3000 hours each. One guy had something approaching 5000 hours and knew how to shift-queue his abilities. My team didn't know what boots were for. Tell me that isn't a problem. I dare you

 

[TheJman]

I think this is what people are saying. I don't think there is much wrong with the algorithm itself, simply that in the case of SA it has to do a sort of "best fit" and that leads to problems. As an example of just how screwed up MM can be I once created a smurf account so I could play with a friend in his first game ever and not have my higher MMR attract a bunch of crazy experienced players to stomp him. I was going to play his support and help him through his lane. Just make sure he had a good time. Everybody in our party with the exception of me was playing their first ever game of Dota.

We were matched against people with on average 3000 hours each. One guy had something approaching 5000 hours and knew how to shift-queue his abilities. My team didn't know what boots were for. Tell me that isn't a problem. I dare you

It's a problem on all servers, well that's what my friends and me find - we play on different servers and sometimes, we get crunched and other times we crunch ... no real balancing going on

 

[pixel_ninja]

It's a problem on all servers, well that's what my friends and me find - we play on different servers and sometimes, we get crunched and other times we crunch ... no real balancing going on

If I can follow on what TheJman has said above, I have been stomped, as well as been fortunate to hand out a few stomps in my time. If I look back and think about the times I got stomped - and I mean "I" not us as a team, it is because I am playing a hero I am not 100% familar with and I am upskilling myself with it.

The point I am trying to make is, maybe the person who has the higher rating picks a new hero with training wheels, and the team then goes on to get stomped. When I saw the individualized MMR for each hero in reborn I think I Jizzled a bit now throw in the fact that there really is not competitive scene outside of organised tournaments since our ranked MM does not exist. You will be getting people who are in the mood to rock out their signature hero, and you will get people who want to upskill a new hero. Usually you go to casual for the latter, but now everyone is lumped into one queue.. aaaand then you get stomped.

@porchrat: I sent you an invite yesterday, let me know if you got it will prob play some tonight

 

[TheJman]

If I can follow on what TheJman has said above, I have been stomped, as well as been fortunate to hand out a few stomps in my time. If I look back and think about the times I got stomped - and I mean "I" not us as a team, it is because I am playing a hero I am not 100% familar with and I am upskilling myself with it.

The point I am trying to make is, maybe the person who has the higher rating picks a new hero with training wheels, and the team then goes on to get stomped. When I saw the individualized MMR for each hero in reborn I think I Jizzled a bit now throw in the fact that there really is not competitive scene outside of organised tournaments since our ranked MM does not exist. You will be getting people who are in the mood to rock out their signature hero, and you will get people who want to upskill a new hero. Usually you go to casual for the latter, but now everyone is lumped into one queue.. aaaand then you get stomped.

So when we upskill new heros - we play against bots, so we are really only ever playing on servers when we're comfortable with a new hero - so the stomping that happens, well, we believe at least, is due to complete mismatch of players (skill that is)...