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F
Former member 61586
Guest
Yip. Going to send the email tomorrow morning. It is basically fraud.
F
Former member 61586
Guest
So this will be my last update on this matter. I sent the following e-mail to ECBSA. I will post their responses to me in another post.
I would hereby like to report a possible case of fraud with regard to electrical certification for two of my properties. I recently purchased a new property which I am currently residing in (let’s call this my new property), and I trying to sell my previous residence (let’s call this my old property).
As a lay person with no real knowledge of electrical regulations, I found a few things very concerning when it came to the electrical certificates for both my old and new properties. So concerning that I do think they amount to fraud by one or both of the contractors concerned.
Let me start with the old property:
1. I kept the electrical certificate from when I moved into that property in 2011 and thus decided to use the same electrical contractor for no other reason than to make sure he applies the same standards as was used when the certificate was issued in 2011.
2. The only things I added to
electrical infrastructure since moving into the property in 2011 was 4 split unit air-conditioners. One 18000 BTU connected to the DB Board using an isolator and three 9000 BTU connected to the electricity supply using a normal 3-prong plug into a wall socket situation just below the air-conditioners on the inside of the property. I also added a “Geyser Wise” geyser control unit.
3. The rest of the home I left exactly as I had found it in 2011 with regard to the electrical installation.
4. So I paid the contractor R1200 to do the “inspection”. He does not come out personally but sends one an electrician who I assume works for his company. The electrician pitched up, did the inspection and told me his boss (the contractor on the 2011 electrical certificate) will call me to discuss the problems.
5. That same day I received a quote for R5290 to repair the
"faults" (obviously the issuing of the electrical certificate has been withheld). The faults listed are as follows:
a. Security light must be removed because it uses a normal 3-prong plug to connected to a wall socket
b. The three 9000 BTU air conditioners must be connected to the DB Board using isolators and not connected via 3-prong plug to a wall socket
c. The garage door motors must be connected to the DB board using isolators and not connected via 3-prong plug to a wall socket
d. Label for 18000 BTU Air-conditioner missing from DB Board (This is the only "fault" I agree with)
6. This is where I suspect fraud. When I moved into that property in 2011, the security light and garage door motors were connected using 3-prong plugs to the wall socket. The certificate was issued then with no problems (these two items were NOT mentioned as being excluded from the 2011 certificate). So if the contractor is correct and the security light must be removed and garage door motor put on an isolator, then he committed fraud in 2011 when he issued the certificate to the previous owners of the property when they sold it to me. If he is not correct, then he obviously committing fraud now and trying to extort money from me for faults which are not truly faults according to the regulations. Either way, he is guilty of fraud in my lay opinion regarding this. (this issue crops up again in my new property’s certificate so please keep note of it for later in the complaint)
7. Then with regard to the three 9000 BTU air-conditioners. Are they not considered appliances as they connect to the wall socket using a normal 3-prong plug? And if so, are they of any concern for the electrical certificate (surely if they are a problem, then unplugging them is the solution and do not make them part of the electrical certificate)? I called 4 of the top listed air-conditioner installers I found on Google in Bloemfontein and every single one said they would install a 9000 BTU air-conditioner for me using this method (using a 3-prong plug to connect to a wall socket) and have never in the past had problems with this method of installation. Are they all wrong and thus defrauding the public by doing it this way? They all did mention that they would only insist on installing an air-conditioner using an isolator to the DB Board if it were 18000 BTU and larger. Who is correct in this instance? (this issue crops up again in my new property’s certificate so please keep note of it for later in the complaint). I would also like to add that I sent this e-mail to a work colleague to provide some input, and he mentioned to me that when he moved into his property in 2000, he had three 12000BTU air-conditioners installed all using a 3-prong plug into a wall socket and he received his electrical certificate for that property without a problem.
8. So now I am being held ransom. Either pay R5290 to have the so called
"faults" repaired, pay another R1200 for a different electrician to come and do another inspection?? Either way, point 6 above clearly points to a case of fraud. Point 7 you can clarify for me and set the record straight. If the electrician is correct in point 7 above, I would appreciate it if you could scan and e-mail to me where in the electrical regulations this is stated.
Now my new property:
1. My new property has the garage door motors connected via a 3-prong plug to a wall socket and this property was issued an electrical certificate. See point 6 above. Either the contractor who did my new or old property’s electrical certificate is guilty of fraud depending on what the regulation say. Again, I would appreciate a reference to those regulations to set the record straight.
2. There is one air-conditioner (I am not 100% sure but think it either 9000 BTU or 12000 BTU) connected via a 3-prong plug to a wall socket and this property was issued an electrical certificate. See point 7 above. In fact, that air-conditioner is not mentioned at all in the issued electrical certificate. The only mention of an air-conditioner is the larger air-conditioner (I think 18000 BTU or 24000 BTU) which is connected to the DB Board via an isolator. Either the contractor who did my new or old property’s electrical certificate is guilty of fraud depending on what the regulation say.
3. There is a wall socket in the garage which does not use the correct thickness of wire. This was pointed out to me by an acquaintance (who is an electrician) who visited my new property. The wire used currently is 1.5mm thick and according to my acquaintance the correct thickness that should be used is 2.5mm. The electrical certificate was issued despite this. Is my acquaintance correct? If so, then this constitutes fraud.
4. My new property has a borehole with borehole pump which is not listed or noted anywhere on the electrical certificate. The borehole pump has a switch on the DB Board. This in my opinion is a serious oversight, and makes me wonder if there was ever even an electrician at my new property that did a physical inspection. In fact, it makes me wonder if my electrical certificate was not simply completed for a fee with no physical inspection.
5. Due mainly to point 4 above, I am confident that if I were to appoint another electrical contractor to do an inspection, they would find a lot more faults.
The details of the contractors are as follows (strangely I could not locate these contractors on your website using the contractor search page):
********** (I had this info all neatly put into a table format in the email which is not showing up correctly on the forum so decided to leave it out as it makes no difference as nothing happens to these pricks anyway)
Let me start by saying now that the reason for this e-mail is to blow the whistle on possible fraud. I will not contact either of the contractors to get clarity or investigate as I believe this to be your responsibility as the governing body for electrical contractors. I will also not allow any of the above mentioned contractors back onto my property as they have clearly shown evidence of deceitfulness. I would appreciate feedback on the investigation (if there will be an investigation) and way forward from the ECBSA as well as what consequences, if any, the above mentioned contractors will face.
These electrical regulations deal with safety and therefore I assume cannot be a matter of interpretation. Something is either right or wrong. There cannot be grey areas. If my complaint is not dealt with in the manner I think it deserves, I can then only assume these electrical certificates are not worth the paper they are written on, and like the rest of the fees payable when purchasing a property, it is only another money-making scheme.
If you require a copy of the new property’s electrical certificate or the old property’s 2011 electrical certificate, please let me know and I will scan and e-mail it to you.
I look forward to your response in this regard.
I would hereby like to report a possible case of fraud with regard to electrical certification for two of my properties. I recently purchased a new property which I am currently residing in (let’s call this my new property), and I trying to sell my previous residence (let’s call this my old property).
As a lay person with no real knowledge of electrical regulations, I found a few things very concerning when it came to the electrical certificates for both my old and new properties. So concerning that I do think they amount to fraud by one or both of the contractors concerned.
Let me start with the old property:
1. I kept the electrical certificate from when I moved into that property in 2011 and thus decided to use the same electrical contractor for no other reason than to make sure he applies the same standards as was used when the certificate was issued in 2011.
2. The only things I added to
electrical infrastructure since moving into the property in 2011 was 4 split unit air-conditioners. One 18000 BTU connected to the DB Board using an isolator and three 9000 BTU connected to the electricity supply using a normal 3-prong plug into a wall socket situation just below the air-conditioners on the inside of the property. I also added a “Geyser Wise” geyser control unit.
3. The rest of the home I left exactly as I had found it in 2011 with regard to the electrical installation.
4. So I paid the contractor R1200 to do the “inspection”. He does not come out personally but sends one an electrician who I assume works for his company. The electrician pitched up, did the inspection and told me his boss (the contractor on the 2011 electrical certificate) will call me to discuss the problems.
5. That same day I received a quote for R5290 to repair the
"faults" (obviously the issuing of the electrical certificate has been withheld). The faults listed are as follows:
a. Security light must be removed because it uses a normal 3-prong plug to connected to a wall socket
b. The three 9000 BTU air conditioners must be connected to the DB Board using isolators and not connected via 3-prong plug to a wall socket
c. The garage door motors must be connected to the DB board using isolators and not connected via 3-prong plug to a wall socket
d. Label for 18000 BTU Air-conditioner missing from DB Board (This is the only "fault" I agree with)
6. This is where I suspect fraud. When I moved into that property in 2011, the security light and garage door motors were connected using 3-prong plugs to the wall socket. The certificate was issued then with no problems (these two items were NOT mentioned as being excluded from the 2011 certificate). So if the contractor is correct and the security light must be removed and garage door motor put on an isolator, then he committed fraud in 2011 when he issued the certificate to the previous owners of the property when they sold it to me. If he is not correct, then he obviously committing fraud now and trying to extort money from me for faults which are not truly faults according to the regulations. Either way, he is guilty of fraud in my lay opinion regarding this. (this issue crops up again in my new property’s certificate so please keep note of it for later in the complaint)
7. Then with regard to the three 9000 BTU air-conditioners. Are they not considered appliances as they connect to the wall socket using a normal 3-prong plug? And if so, are they of any concern for the electrical certificate (surely if they are a problem, then unplugging them is the solution and do not make them part of the electrical certificate)? I called 4 of the top listed air-conditioner installers I found on Google in Bloemfontein and every single one said they would install a 9000 BTU air-conditioner for me using this method (using a 3-prong plug to connect to a wall socket) and have never in the past had problems with this method of installation. Are they all wrong and thus defrauding the public by doing it this way? They all did mention that they would only insist on installing an air-conditioner using an isolator to the DB Board if it were 18000 BTU and larger. Who is correct in this instance? (this issue crops up again in my new property’s certificate so please keep note of it for later in the complaint). I would also like to add that I sent this e-mail to a work colleague to provide some input, and he mentioned to me that when he moved into his property in 2000, he had three 12000BTU air-conditioners installed all using a 3-prong plug into a wall socket and he received his electrical certificate for that property without a problem.
8. So now I am being held ransom. Either pay R5290 to have the so called
"faults" repaired, pay another R1200 for a different electrician to come and do another inspection?? Either way, point 6 above clearly points to a case of fraud. Point 7 you can clarify for me and set the record straight. If the electrician is correct in point 7 above, I would appreciate it if you could scan and e-mail to me where in the electrical regulations this is stated.
Now my new property:
1. My new property has the garage door motors connected via a 3-prong plug to a wall socket and this property was issued an electrical certificate. See point 6 above. Either the contractor who did my new or old property’s electrical certificate is guilty of fraud depending on what the regulation say. Again, I would appreciate a reference to those regulations to set the record straight.
2. There is one air-conditioner (I am not 100% sure but think it either 9000 BTU or 12000 BTU) connected via a 3-prong plug to a wall socket and this property was issued an electrical certificate. See point 7 above. In fact, that air-conditioner is not mentioned at all in the issued electrical certificate. The only mention of an air-conditioner is the larger air-conditioner (I think 18000 BTU or 24000 BTU) which is connected to the DB Board via an isolator. Either the contractor who did my new or old property’s electrical certificate is guilty of fraud depending on what the regulation say.
3. There is a wall socket in the garage which does not use the correct thickness of wire. This was pointed out to me by an acquaintance (who is an electrician) who visited my new property. The wire used currently is 1.5mm thick and according to my acquaintance the correct thickness that should be used is 2.5mm. The electrical certificate was issued despite this. Is my acquaintance correct? If so, then this constitutes fraud.
4. My new property has a borehole with borehole pump which is not listed or noted anywhere on the electrical certificate. The borehole pump has a switch on the DB Board. This in my opinion is a serious oversight, and makes me wonder if there was ever even an electrician at my new property that did a physical inspection. In fact, it makes me wonder if my electrical certificate was not simply completed for a fee with no physical inspection.
5. Due mainly to point 4 above, I am confident that if I were to appoint another electrical contractor to do an inspection, they would find a lot more faults.
The details of the contractors are as follows (strangely I could not locate these contractors on your website using the contractor search page):
********** (I had this info all neatly put into a table format in the email which is not showing up correctly on the forum so decided to leave it out as it makes no difference as nothing happens to these pricks anyway)
Let me start by saying now that the reason for this e-mail is to blow the whistle on possible fraud. I will not contact either of the contractors to get clarity or investigate as I believe this to be your responsibility as the governing body for electrical contractors. I will also not allow any of the above mentioned contractors back onto my property as they have clearly shown evidence of deceitfulness. I would appreciate feedback on the investigation (if there will be an investigation) and way forward from the ECBSA as well as what consequences, if any, the above mentioned contractors will face.
These electrical regulations deal with safety and therefore I assume cannot be a matter of interpretation. Something is either right or wrong. There cannot be grey areas. If my complaint is not dealt with in the manner I think it deserves, I can then only assume these electrical certificates are not worth the paper they are written on, and like the rest of the fees payable when purchasing a property, it is only another money-making scheme.
If you require a copy of the new property’s electrical certificate or the old property’s 2011 electrical certificate, please let me know and I will scan and e-mail it to you.
I look forward to your response in this regard.
F
Former member 61586
Guest
These are the two responses I got from the ECBSA in this order:
First this one:
Good Day
If they are plugged into the socket they are considered appliances and fall outside the scope of the CoC as long as they are still reasonably safe
Then this one:
Good day
All compliance issues must be lodged with the Dept of Labour as custodians of the OHS Act
Contact DoL Regional OHS Specialist
[email protected] / 051 505 6347 / 082 905 5102
I tried contacting the Department of Labour contact via e-mail. No response yet and I doubt I will ever get a response.
This is the last e-mail I sent back to the ECBSA:
Thank you for two replies to my complaint.
The first reply regarding the plugs/appliances therefore confirms my fraud accusation against the electrical contractor for my old property.
The second reply however, directing me to the Department of Labour has left me a little confused. Your motto is "safety through conformance". Here I am reporting a case of fraud and definite safety issues, and I am being told to go elsewhere. Which leads me to ask the question, what is your purpose? I see your bank details are proudly displayed on the website. Is that your purpose? To collect money?
Anyway, I will be sure to highlight your concern shown in "Safety through conformance" when I contact the Department of Labour and whomever else they send me to.
to which I received this final response from them (ECBSA):
Good Day
We are a Voluntary Organisation promoting Conformance throughout the industry not just in installation but in products, regulations etc
We represent the entire industry
I am pretty dumbstruck. The lesson I learnt from this whole fiasco.....when you buy a house insist on appointing an independent (note I didn't say honest as they do not exist) electrician to do the electrical certificate. When you sell, buy the certificate and avoid headaches. This is obviously not how I want to do things, but it is the way things are done.
First this one:
Good Day
If they are plugged into the socket they are considered appliances and fall outside the scope of the CoC as long as they are still reasonably safe
Then this one:
Good day
All compliance issues must be lodged with the Dept of Labour as custodians of the OHS Act
Contact DoL Regional OHS Specialist
[email protected] / 051 505 6347 / 082 905 5102
I tried contacting the Department of Labour contact via e-mail. No response yet and I doubt I will ever get a response.
This is the last e-mail I sent back to the ECBSA:
Thank you for two replies to my complaint.
The first reply regarding the plugs/appliances therefore confirms my fraud accusation against the electrical contractor for my old property.
The second reply however, directing me to the Department of Labour has left me a little confused. Your motto is "safety through conformance". Here I am reporting a case of fraud and definite safety issues, and I am being told to go elsewhere. Which leads me to ask the question, what is your purpose? I see your bank details are proudly displayed on the website. Is that your purpose? To collect money?
Anyway, I will be sure to highlight your concern shown in "Safety through conformance" when I contact the Department of Labour and whomever else they send me to.
to which I received this final response from them (ECBSA):
Good Day
We are a Voluntary Organisation promoting Conformance throughout the industry not just in installation but in products, regulations etc
We represent the entire industry
I am pretty dumbstruck. The lesson I learnt from this whole fiasco.....when you buy a house insist on appointing an independent (note I didn't say honest as they do not exist) electrician to do the electrical certificate. When you sell, buy the certificate and avoid headaches. This is obviously not how I want to do things, but it is the way things are done.
F
Former member 61586
Guest
The post where they respond is below the post of my email to them. I think you are confusing new post with new thread?
Sorry we both posted at 27-01-2017 09:48 AM!
F
Former member 61586
Guest
Apologies. I didn't notice that.