HavocXphere
Honorary Master
Certainly but that doesn't make it fair.
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[Experiment] AA/EE/BEE: How much longer?
- Thread starter HavocXphere
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We're discriminating in favour of people who were previously discriminated against. (Fact.)
The main criterion for this original discrimination was skin colour. (Fact.)
So to redress that imbalance it is unfortunately necessary to discriminate based on skin colour. (Fact.)
I know you want to say "discrimination is discrimination". But that would only be true in a world of absolutes.
In such a world, giving your kid brother a sweet to cheer him up after he was bullied is the same as giving a high-school bully a full scholarship to Havard. (Why? Because giving is giving!)
Yeah. It's not an eye for an eye, though.
scud
Expert Member
Grayston, as you point out, BEE is unfortunately discrimination based on skin colour.
The reasons we are in this situation are all unfortunate, and i do hope we find a more positive alternative to BEE where the poor actually benefit.
No wonder Mandela and the ANC Bihop is ashamed and this country is veering on a big FUP. Malema runs around in many disguises.
porchrat
Honorary Master
This part hasn't happened yet and so is not a fact. (Fact.)
The redressing the imbalance part or the discriminating on skin colour part? (Inquiry.)
porchrat
Honorary Master
The part that says that the imbalances must be addressed through discrimination based on skin colour.
Unless you're claiming it has happened and you have evidence for it? I mean... that would make it a fact. Otherwise it is just your opinion though.
No, the imbalances have not been redressed (ie. remedied) yet. One mechanism that we are using (note present continuous tense) in order to make that happen is discrimination based on skin colour. (Both facts.)
porchrat
Honorary Master
Yet you claim you have a solution that you know with 100% certainty will work?
You're going to have to prove that by actually... you know... showing that it will work... you know... by making it redress the imbalances. Until you do that it is just your opinion that it will redress the imbalances. So it is not fact. (Fact.)
No that part in bold is not a fact. That is what you think will address imbalances. Your thoughts are not automatically facts though. (Fact.)
1) It's current form should be immediatey scrapped, it does absolutely nothing for 99% of black people
2) For at least ten years at this rate
I think the original intention behind BEE may have been a noble one but let's face it it's just not working, it enriches a few and polarises a nation. Maybe a more effective policy would be to help poor people regardless of colour, not by giving them jobs they may not deserve but by giving them grants/reducing school fees for every A they get in school or organising entrepreneurial workshops/easy loans for starting your own business etc. Anything to give the average poor person an incentive to claw their way out of poverty.
If they insist on the current system for awarding tenders perhaps it should be restricted to one tender per family or restricted to people under a certain income bracket,
2) For at least ten years at this rate
I think the original intention behind BEE may have been a noble one but let's face it it's just not working, it enriches a few and polarises a nation. Maybe a more effective policy would be to help poor people regardless of colour, not by giving them jobs they may not deserve but by giving them grants/reducing school fees for every A they get in school or organising entrepreneurial workshops/easy loans for starting your own business etc. Anything to give the average poor person an incentive to claw their way out of poverty.
If they insist on the current system for awarding tenders perhaps it should be restricted to one tender per family or restricted to people under a certain income bracket,
What's your point, dude? AA hasn't magically wiped the slate clean yet, therefore AA never will? Do you stop doing the washing up after 1 dish because cleaning 1 dish didn't clean the rest?
We discriminated on race before, and it messed things up. One of the things we are doing to reverse that discrimination is to help out the people who were discriminated against. Other things include improving education, healthcare and basic services. There are lots of other things too.
Funnily enough, the only person who thinks that AA is the ONLY solution being presented is, well, you. Even Malema realises it won't be enough on its own. Unfortunately, he tries to add nationalisation to the mix, instead of something constructive like, you know, education...
Enjoy the weekend, buddy.
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MickeyD
RIP
Question?
How will the success of AA/EE (not BBBEE) be measured?
How will the success of AA/EE (not BBBEE) be measured?
IMHO by the total number of whites, Indians, coloreds and other foreign nations who remain in South Africa, that would be then when the "Rainbow Nation" text can be replaced by "African Nation"
Your formulation of the topic is incorrect. It’s an education and time issue. The alphabet soup discrimination should never have been applied.
Consider:
The deployed cadres are ignorant – through no fault of their own (apartheid). It is not reasonable to take someone who has only experienced feudalism (1000’s of years) and whose highest achievement is herding cattle and running around in the bush at the behest of MK or APLA and expecting them to perform in a democracy. Corruption and stealing is measured as success. There is no tradition of service or delivery. “Bugger you Jack, I’ve got ‘connections’ so I’m all right”.
The solution is (good) education and the reinstatement of various institutions that were dismantled by the ANC for punitive reasons. This should happen over 2 generations. THEN AA/EE/BEE should be applied – however, I don’t think it will be necessary,
porchrat
Honorary Master
No my point is that AA hasn't sorted the imbalances out yet and you don't know that it ultimately will so you can't call the belief that it will a fact. It isn't a difficult concept to grasp.
LOL funnily enough now you're entirely confusing what I'm trying to say to you. Though this is not surprising considering that previous "apology" fiasco. I'm not saying it is the ONLY solution being presented. I'm saying we don't know what it's results will be and you're assuming it will work. You're regarding it's success as a fact before it has even happened.
I have no problem with your belief in the idea that we require reverse racial discrimination to get to a state of normality. Heck maybe you're right. Just don't try to present that belief as fact as you have done. In fact so far the approach clearly has it's problems so personally I doubt it is going to result in a total redress of the imbalances.
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MickeyD
RIP
This is my main issue. I accept the principle of fair discrimination but all measurements to determine success need to be quantifiable and qualitative.
HavocXphere
Honorary Master
Time we've got. Education...not so much.
I've also got a sneaky suspicion that there is no motivation to fix the education system. Quite the opposite....educated voters don't vote for parties that fail consistently at all sorts of things.
In the first place we needed to keep an account of what has been done, then we needed to issue justice in the most just and accurate method possible. This has not been done, the ANC simply done Apartheid in reverse. Yes it is true that to some, although much smaller extent race may play a roll everywhere, however the primary mission was justice, repaying what has been taken, to pay the checks and balances as accurately as possible and to bring the nation to a fair state of trust once again. When? i have no clue! This entire system is corrupt, from apartheid to BEE, we need justice, but so much corruption has already taken place that i don't know how we are going to get it, unless we had to create yet another injustice right above it, all i'm saying is that we should look at the situation from a standpoint that is as accurate as possible, a non-racial standpoint, race would only be a factor of getting trust into the corporate world, none more.
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