F1 2012 thread

Senna must follow his extremely fast team mate into walls, other cars and jumping starts.

Wow i think pastor should follow senna, avoid hitting shyte as often as possible!!!!
 
HapticSimian said:
Understandable, but a pity. Maldonado is a dipstick.
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killadoob said:
Senna must follow his extremely fast team mate into walls, other cars and jumping starts.

Wow i think pastor should follow senna, avoid hitting shyte as often as possible!!!!
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Can't deny superior speed. He won a race for a reason.

Senna is a case of "steady as she goes". No frills, no fuss. But, he won't get faster. Pastor is already fast and if and when he calms down the gap between the two will become even more glaring.
 
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thestaggy said:
Can't deny superior speed. He won a race for a reason.
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Taking his victory into account, the current standings really do paint the whole picture on ol' Pastor: 25 points for a win; Maldonado's on 29, Senna's on 25. Williams needs the money he brings to the table, that is all. He is, by far, the worst driver ever to have won a GP.
 
Who is the better driver in this scenario?

pastor 25 points
senna 25 points

Pastor won a race and did not finish the rest. I know that is not the case but winning one race and being stupid in every other race does not make you better.
 
HapticSimian said:
Taking his victory into account, the current standings really do paint the whole picture on ol' Pastor: 25 points for a win; Maldonado's on 29, Senna's on 25. Williams needs the money he brings to the table, that is all. He is, by far, the worst driver ever to have won a GP.
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Please justify that statement. And no, a boohoo "he crashes" won't work. Vettel crashed. Hamilton crashed. Montoya crashed. All fiery drivers that had their fair share of scraps but all won races and titles because of their raw speed.

8 - 10 points lost in Australia
12 - 15 points lost in Valencia

Granted through his own faults (although shared with Hamilton in Valencia), but add those up and it is quite clear which driver has been far faster.

11-2 in qualifying and one of those was due to a KERS failure. Senna has also made the top-10 once, and even then he was outqualified by Pastor. Pastor has been on pole, qualified inside the top-3 on 3 occasions (one of those he was demoted to 6th) and has 6 top-10 qualifications.

Errors aside, no comparison. Senna is a great, solid #2 that will potter around and harass the backend of the points. Pastor is a merited race winner - the field was not decimated and nobody handed him that win - that will threaten the podium.
 
thestaggy said:
Please justify that statement. And no, a boohoo "he crashes" won't work. Vettel crashed. Hamilton crashed. Montoya crashed. All fiery drivers that had their fair share of scraps but all won races and titles because of their raw speed.

8 - 10 points lost in Australia
12 - 15 points lost in Valencia

Granted through his own faults (although shared with Hamilton in Valencia), but add those up and it is quite clear which driver has been far faster.

11-2 in qualifying and one of those was due to a KERS failure. Senna has also made the top-10 once, and even then he was outqualified by Pastor. Pastor has been on pole, qualified inside the top-3 on 3 occasions (one of those he was demoted to 6th) and has 6 top-10 qualifications.

Errors aside, no comparison. Senna is a great, solid #2 that will potter around and harass the backend of the points. Pastor is a merited race winner - the field was not decimated and nobody handed him that win - that will threaten the podium.
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ONE worthwhile drive means squat - back in '97 Damon Hill was one lap away from winning the Hungarian Grand Prix... in a freakin' Arrows. Some Sundays things just click for a given combination of car and driver.

I base my statement on near 2 decades of not having missed a GP, of seeing champions become also-rans, of witnessing new blood coming in to usurp the old guard. Williams have indeed found another Montoya in Pastor; someone who might be quick on the odd occasion, but who will never exhibit the temperament necessary to lift the crown. Soon as his his Venezuelan backing dries up he'll be out on his ass.

*edit*

Also, remind me who was penalised for the Hamilton/Maldonado incident in Valencia... ;)
 
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HapticSimian said:
ONE worthwhile drive means squat - back in '97 Damon Hill was one lap away from winning the Hungarian Grand Prix... in a freakin' Arrows. Some Sundays things just click for a given combination of car and driver.

I base my statement on near 2 decades of not having missed a GP, of seeing champions become also-rans, of witnessing new blood coming in to usurp the old gard. Williams have indeed found another Montoya in Pastor; someone who might be quick on the odd occasion, but who will never exhibit the temperament necessary to lift the crown. Soon as his his Venezuelan backing dries up he'll be out on his ass.

*edit*

Also, remind me who was penalised for the Hamilton/Maldonado incident in Valencia... ;)
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Damon Hill was a World Champion and nearly a two-time World Champion. Yes, everything clicked at that race but importantly, the car matched the driver's ability on the day. At Spain this year Maldonado qualified 2nd and on the day nobody was quicker. Williams gave him a fast car that looked after its tyres and Maldonado won. There is no doubting Maldonado gets a lot more out of that car. A LOT more.

Dude, Pastor has him stitched up in qualifying and while he threw away 2 big points hauls, it is not ONE race. He has, by far, been the faster Williams driver. If he had much hair left no doubt Sir Frank would be pulling it out over his two points-chucking mishaps, but he has ability.

And I never said Maldonado would be a World Champion. I said he deserves his race seat, is better & faster than Senna, is a merited race-winner and will be a podium threat should Williams continue to deliver a competitive car. I wouldn't deny that his bank balance is not a factor, but he is most certainly a very rare case of a pay-driver that actually has what it takes to be on that grid due to ability.

Compare the antics at the Bus Stop chicane during the Spa GP with the Hamilton-Maldonado prang in Valencia and get back to me. Hamilton gave him absolutely no room to even make that corner yet at the very busy Bus Stop there was not one shunt as drivers gave each other room to live and fight. Hamilton gave him no room, Pastro tried to create room. 50-50 in my opinion and had Hamilton have given him room that accident does not happen and Lewis is 12-points closer to Alonso.
 
thestaggy said:
Damon Hill was a World Champion and nearly a two-time World Champion. Yes, everything clicked at that race but importantly, the car matched the driver's ability on the day. At Spain this year Maldonado qualified 2nd and on the day nobody was quicker. Williams gave him a fast car that looked after its tyres and Maldonado won. There is no doubting Maldonado gets a lot more out of that car. A LOT more.

Dude, Pastor has him stitched up in qualifying and while he threw away 2 big points hauls, it is not ONE race. He has, by far, been the faster Williams driver. If he had much hair left no doubt Sir Frank would be pulling it out over his two points-chucking mishaps, but he has ability.

And I never said Maldonado would be a World Champion. I said he deserves his race seat, is better & faster than Senna, is a merited race-winner and will be a podium threat should Williams continue to deliver a competitive car. I wouldn't deny that his bank balance is not a factor, but he is most certainly a very rare case of a pay-driver that actually has what it takes to be on that grid due to ability.

Compare the antics at the Bus Stop chicane during the Spa GP with the Hamilton-Maldonado prang in Valencia and get back to me. Hamilton gave him absolutely no room to even make that corner yet at the very busy Bus Stop there was not one shunt as drivers gave each other room to live and fight. Hamilton gave him no room, Pastro tried to create room. 50-50 in my opinion and had Hamilton have given him room that accident does not happen and Lewis is 12-points closer to Alonso.
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Ugh... really mustn't post from my phone... 'old gard'? Anyhoo...

Go read the wiki articles on Maldonado and Senna. They've both had their successes and failures - viewing their respective careers as a whole I don't think there's too much to choose between them as far as outright ability goes. Maldonado blows hot and cold though, where Senna seems to be far more level-headed and consistent.

That all aside, I just think he's an ass... and I'd rather see less ass-like drivers hold on to their mid-to-upper-field race seats. I believe Senna has potential, but I can see it going unrealised because of sponsorship dollars. I just find that a little sad.

As for the collision between Maldonado and Hamilton... my placement of an ;) was deliberate. After the farcical penalty Vettel was given in the last race one can hardly use the stewards' decisions as a litmus test for blame.
 
HapticSimian said:
Ugh... really mustn't post from my phone... 'old gard'? Anyhoo...

Go read the wiki articles on Maldonado and Senna. They've both had their successes and failures - viewing their respective careers as a whole I don't think there's too much to choose between them as far as outright ability goes. Maldonado blows hot and cold though, where Senna seems to be far more level-headed and consistent.

That all aside, I just think he's an ass... and I'd rather see less ass-like drivers hold on to their mid-to-upper-field race seats. I believe Senna has potential, but I can see it going unrealised because of sponsorship dollars. I just find that a little sad.

As for the collision between Maldonado and Hamilton... my placement of an ;) was deliberate. After the farcical penalty Vettel was given in the last race one can hardly use the stewards' decisions as a litmus test for blame.
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Senna would be and is a very good #2 driver. That's it. A poor man's Rubens Barrichello. He's been consistent and productive but clearly lacks that spark Williams needs to drive itself up the grid. Granted Pastor's spark unfortunately ignites a raging fire, but he has a higher ceiling. I doubt Valtteri Bottas - indefinitely Bruno's replacement - has that much more funding to offer than Bruno, but he is seen as a more talented prospect.

I'd also like to know how you can slate Pastor, then say Bruno is better, then say they are almost comparable? Not quite sure where that puts Bruno? A smidgen better than the carp Pastor? Not sure if that is a complement or not? :p

I do not dispute that he loses his head, but he is not the first, last or only driver guilty of that. I also understand why people don't like him, and each to his own, but I will debate anyone that says his win was undeserved and that he lacks ability.

Anyhoo, this will be the second time I've debated the Maldonado saga and it oftens turns out I'm the only guy who roots for him, so I'd like to let this dog lie. Myself and Pastor vs MyBB and the world! :p

The Stewards are too inconsistent in their decisions, but that is likely due to the fact that they are changed race-by-race. They should have a panel of ex-F1 drivers that stays the same throughout the year. A panel of say Nick Heidfeld, Alexander Wurz & Johnny Herbert. That gives near two-decades of opinion from 3 level-headed drivers. Although seeing as Wurz is a safety nut we might see drivers getting suspended for life for the slightest mishap. :p Maybe throw a more aggressive driver into the panel as well for a white-knuckled perspective.
 
thestaggy said:
...
I'd also like to know how you can slate Pastor, then say Bruno is better, then say they are almost comparable? Not quite sure where that puts Bruno? A smidgen better than the carp Pastor? Not sure if that is a complement or not? :p
...
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Let me attempt to clarify my position: I wouldn't deny that Maldonado would probably outpace Senna consistently over a single lap. However, given the challenges of a full season in comparable machinery, I'd be surprised if either would wholly outscore the other.

I foresee a situation where, come the end of the season, the higher placed driver is sacked in favour of the one with the deeper pockets, and I rather just not see that happen. If I were on the Williams executive I'd be arguing for consistency - keeping the driver line-up for at least another 2 or 3 seasons - but that's hardly ever been how uncle Frank rolls.
 
Starting Grid for Singapore GP @ 14h00 today

1. Lewis Hamilton (Britain) McLaren 1:46.362
2. Pastor Maldonado (Venezuela) Williams - Renault 1:46.804
3. Sebastian Vettel (Germany) RedBull - Renault 1:46.905
4. Jenson Button (Britain) McLaren 1:46.939
5. Fernando Alonso (Spain) Ferrari 1:47.216
6. Paul Di Resta (Britain) Force India - Mercedes 1:47.241
7. Mark Webber (Australia) RedBull - Renault 1:47.475
8. Romain Grosjean (France) Lotus - Renault 1:47.788
9. Michael Schumacher (Germany) Mercedes
10. Nico Rosberg (Germany) Mercedes
11. Nico Huelkenberg (Germany) Force India - Mercedes 1:47.975
12. Kimi Raikkonen (Finland) Lotus - Renault 1:48.261
13. Felipe Massa (Brazil) Ferrari 1:48.344
14. Sergio Perez (Mexico) Sauber - Ferrari 1:48.505
15. Daniel Ricciardo (Australia) Toro Rosso - Ferrari 1:48.774
16. Jean-Eric Vergne (France) Toro Rosso - Ferrari 1:48.849
17. Bruno Senna (Brazil) Williams - Renault
18. Kamui Kobayashi (Japan) Sauber - Ferrari 1:49.933
19. Vitaly Petrov (Russia) Caterham - Renault 1:50.846
20. Heikki Kovalainen (Finland) Caterham - Renault 1:51.137
21. Timo Glock (Germany) Marussia - Cosworth 1:51.370
22. Charles Pic (France) Marussia - Cosworth 1:51.762
23. Narain Karthikeyan (India) HRT - Cosworth 1:52.372
24. Pedro de la Rosa (Spain) HRT - Cosworth 1:53.355
 
60% chance of Maldonado taking himself & Hamilton off within the first 2 corners
30% chance of Maldonado doing a Grojean and taking all the championship contenders out within the first 2 corners
10% chance of a clean start
 
Not the most exciting race is Singapore. Alonso is getting there slowly but steadily.

@HapticSimian, what would you call your faith in Science? Just curious.
 
MyDogHasNoNose said:
Not the most exciting race is Singapore. Alonso is getting there slowly but steadily.

@HapticSimian, what would you call your faith in Science? Just curious.
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AirWolf said:
He was referring to your signature in your last post, I think.
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'Spose he was... Was posting from my cell - which doesn't display signatures - so I didn't make the connection.

Right, MDHNN (for brevity's sake), if you were referring to my sig I'd do a few things:
  1. I'd note that, if you have to ask the question, you clearly haven't clicked on the link. Then I'd ask that you do...
  2. I'd draw attention to the disingenuous nature of equating having 'faith' in things like the sun rising in the morning, or in scienctific inquiry, to having faith in baby Jesus... or Mo'... or whatever flavour of religion you subscribe to. Then I'd point you to the dictionary definition of faith, just so you can see that it can mean a variety of things dependent on context.
  3. Just to make sure we understand each other, I'd point you to the dictionary definition of the word 'context'.
  4. Lastly, I'd point to the wholly off-topic nature of your obeservation and ask that you initiate such off-topic discussion either via PM or in relevant threads in future.

Kthnx :)
 
Poor Hamilton, sad to see a championship being decided on DNFs.
GO VETTEL! 2010 anyone? :D
Was funny seeing so many drivers absolutely failing, seems Singapore really is a hard race for them.
 
Little-Mermaid said:
Poor Hamilton, sad to see a championship being decided on DNFs.
GO VETTEL! 2010 anyone? :D
Was funny seeing so many drivers absolutely failing, seems Singapore really is a hard race for them.
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Ferrari and Alonso is quitely pwning Vettel's title one race at a time in an inferior car ;)
 
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