Getting poorer

[Hamster]

If it was just those sectors I would understand, it's the same when workers in Eskom, Mtn, Transnet, Telkom and others go on strike for better wages, it's like an assumption has been made that unions represents people who are not educated or qualified, as you've just shown in your post, look at the first jobs you thought about when I mentioned unions....

The first two job sectors I thought about was Fiancials and IT. The rest I just picked the last two strikes that had the biggest impact on me and followed up with a generic blanket statement: "manual labourer" <- everybody else.

It's got nothing to do with education. Engineers have trouble keeping jobs as well.

Your assumption about my assumption is wrong.

 

[Mike Hoxbig]

This industry has taught me one thing, don't expect companies to pay you want you worth, they will demand loyalty but fail to give you a reason to be. If you want to stay ahead of the curve then always be learning new products, technologies etc, work hard at your job to earn a name in the industry, market yourself before the company and every two years see what the industry is paying for someone with your level of experience and certifications. If you underpaid and overworked then move on...

I don't think it's entirely unreasonable though. People can't just decide what they're worth, they need to be able to prove it either through value provided or through another offer. Everyone thinks they're worth more than they're paid.

What I'm against is a big difference in salary between peers of similar (or the same) experience at the same company. And if a company is hiring someone, they shouldn't just try to low-ball the person, but rather make them an offer based on what their peers at the company are earning. Low-balling often leads to resentment, because sooner or later people find out. People are more likely to stay longer if they find out that they're being treated fairly compared to everyone else...

 

[XennoX]

This is a solid idea. I get junior guys approaching me every now and then, complaining about being underpaid and demanding double their salary. I tell them that that's not doable, but if they bring me an offer from someone else, I'll try my best to beat that offer.
I'm yet to have anyone bring me an offer, or even leave the company on grounds of renumeration, while reporting to me.
It's important to know what you're worth, and you're worth whatever someone is willing to pay you.

If the people that resign, whilst being one of your subordinates, do not leave for reasons of remuneration, what are the typical reasons they give during their exit interviews?

 

[Messugga]

If the people that resign, whilst being one of your subordinates, do not leave for reasons of remuneration, what are the typical reasons they give during their exit interviews?

Emigration, family situations that have changed, simply wanting something in a different direction than what we can offer as a company. We hire a lot of accountants/CAs and we work in a fairly niche part of the financial industry that requires the vast majority of staff to be exposed to fairly technical things, which isn't to everyone's taste.

I've honestly not had many people resign. If they're good people and try their best with their work, I'll fight for them to get as much out of the company as possible, in terms of salary, training, etc. I think they usually appreciate that, although I usually come across as a bit of an idiot, initially.

Not to say that there haven't been people that left due to feeling they're underpaid. It happens. I just find that when people are unhappy with other aspects of their work life, they often jump to more money being the solution. If you manage to keep them happy, they tend to stay happy with their salaries as well.
As a company, we really do pay on the upper end of the scale though.

 

[Messugga]

Its hard not to blame one's employer when they give a shyte increase, and then brag about how much money they have, and start acquiring other companies.

As for experience, this statement here intrigues me:


I have got no degree. Yet the degree fail is used as a justification, every single time, to pay me less than the graduate twirp from Uni, because, reasons...

Getting back on topic though- I have seen the trend, the slide started in earnest around 2009 already, well it did for me...
Salary increases since then were poor, or nonexistent... I have been stuck in the same payscale now for over 4 years, even if I change jobs I get maybe like a R100 increase, in some cases I have to take a R6k knock, that's what happened with my previous job..

If the economy is in the toilet, I can understand that, but clearly it isn't in the toilet, or close enough to the toilet if these people I have worked for have had it so good they can brag about it..

Lack of a degree is BS for a programmer, in my experience. The best ones I know, and I know a few, were either excellent programmers well before they completed or even started their degrees, or just never bothered with a formal qualification.
The big corporates love using that as motivation for not promoting people though,and this isn't limited to technical staff, in my experience.

 

[shadow_man]

I have got no degree. Yet the degree fail is used as a justification, every single time, to pay me less than the graduate twirp from Uni, because, reasons...

Getting back on topic though- I have seen the trend, the slide started in earnest around 2009 already, well it did for me...
Salary increases since then were poor, or nonexistent... I have been stuck in the same payscale now for over 4 years, even if I change jobs I get maybe like a R100 increase, in some cases I have to take a R6k knock, that's what happened with my previous job..

If the economy is in the toilet, I can understand that, but clearly it isn't in the toilet, or close enough to the toilet if these people I have worked for have had it so good they can brag about it..

Perhaps its your bad attitude Koosi? You KEEP blaming the employers in EVERY SINGLE thread and never take accountability for your actions.

 

[F1ve_Claw]

I don't think it's entirely unreasonable though. People can't just decide what they're worth, they need to be able to prove it either through value provided or through another offer. Everyone thinks they're worth more than they're paid.

What I'm against is a big difference in salary between peers of similar (or the same) experience at the same company. And if a company is hiring someone, they shouldn't just try to low-ball the person, but rather make them an offer based on what their peers at the company are earning. Low-balling often leads to resentment, because sooner or later people find out. People are more likely to stay longer if they find out that they're being treated fairly compared to everyone else...

The company I work at now does this. They pay you based on what you made in your previous job, so between people with the exact same title and responsibility you can see up 50% difference between the top of the scale and the bottom. As people get promoted (VERY SLOWLY) the gap widens between those in management who are new hires and those in the company already. You can see team managers with 3x difference, with the sad thing being they have NO idea they are being ripped off!

 

[JackWhite]

If the company values you, then you would know it already. If your'e not sure, then you just a pleb.

 

[the eskimo]

I don't think it's entirely unreasonable though. People can't just decide what they're worth, they need to be able to prove it either through value provided or through another offer. Everyone thinks they're worth more than they're paid.

What I'm against is a big difference in salary between peers of similar (or the same) experience at the same company. And if a company is hiring someone, they shouldn't just try to low-ball the person, but rather make them an offer based on what their peers at the company are earning. Low-balling often leads to resentment, because sooner or later people find out. People are more likely to stay longer if they find out that they're being treated fairly compared to everyone else...

This is the truth.

I also don't think its that unreasonable to low-ball a new recruit (if they come off a low base) but then when they can show their value, you bring them in line to the market, and this must be done sooner rather than later (within the first year).

 

[Messugga]

Perhaps its your bad attitude Koosi? You KEEP blaming the employers in EVERY SINGLE thread and never take accountability for your actions.

That's Koosi? Oh good lord. The man was always the most competent person ever and everyone else was to blame for his troubles/failures in life. The perpetual victim.

 

[P924]

Perhaps its your bad attitude Koosi? You KEEP blaming the employers in EVERY SINGLE thread and never take accountability for your actions.

Thank you!

If it smells like poo everywhere you go, perhaps it is time to change your pants.

 

[Randy_The_Squirrel]

Let's not derail the thread here shall we...
On the whole my job woes are 50% my own making... How so? Being willing to settle for anything out of desperation.
When desperate to get out of a situation, all logic and critical thinking flies out the window. The whole story is not revealed either as doing so is disclosure of personal information. So you will have to just trust me on that.

Troubles in life are things we all face, failure is an opportunity to get up and try again. Rather to have failed than not try hey?

Getting back on topic...
I find it rare, that's all, that there are still managers out there that will fight for their staff. That said, I have seen a lot, I am a job hopper so I will readily admit that, perhaps it gives a better idea. My situation is a bit unique, but not unlike some on this forum.
Overall, everyone IS getting poorer. You'd be a fool not to see this. Its not just the less than 5% increases, its the < 4% over the past 5 years, the increase in tax, the horrendous cost of living increases, the cost of fuel, and of course, if you chose badly like I did, to work for fatcats in the past, it kind of messes with your brain. Those guys don't give a fark about you... they will gladly buy other companies, and plead poverty when it comes to increase time, and they treat you as if you are stupid, any fool can see so-and-so got a new Ferrari. Having ASD adds to the mix that I am inherently more a word/codesmith than an office gadfly and my lack of empathy, social skill, and other essential interpersonal skills count for several points against me.

At the moment I do two jobs to get by, the primary one during the day, and the secondary one on weekends to earn extra money to pay for stuff we cannot otherwise afford. The amount of belt-tightening we have done cannot be exceeded, there is no more belt to tighten, and this is what many don't realise is happening for the "disappearing middle class". All I can get, in a month, for myself, is my ADSL line and the ISP package, and a bit of hosting. All my other income goes towards schooling, food, medication (yes Discovery won't pay for PMBs), rent, and fuel. Not enough left to save, and often, in a minus. Cannot afford a new PC, so if it dies I am farked.. You get the picture.

Something has to give, somewhere along the line, and with the way things are in SA, I don't think it will be pretty at all.

 

[Cius]

The amount of belt-tightening we have done cannot be exceeded, there is no more belt to tighten, and this is what many don't realise is happening for the "disappearing middle class". All I can get, in a month, for myself, is my ADSL line and the ISP package, and a bit of hosting. All my other income goes towards schooling, food, medication (yes Discovery won't pay for PMBs), rent, and fuel. Not enough left to save, and often, in a minus. Cannot afford a new PC, so if it dies I am farked.. You get the picture.

Something has to give, somewhere along the line, and with the way things are in SA, I don't think it will be pretty at all.

This is spot on how I feel. I have done everything right. Studied a hard to get qualification, working for a good financial company, was very comfortable, and the past 3-4 years has just eroded all of that. I have no flashy expenses. The next luxury to go would probably be my ADSL line at home which is a 2mb Afrihost package so not exactly fancy. I don't drive a fancy car not does the wife. I live in a very average home and it just does not feel like my salary can stretch anymore. The wife has started taking on more part time work to help us afford some luxuries but its making me angry how screwed over good middle class people are. It just feels wrong. Hence my underlying frustration.

 

[The_Librarian]

This is spot on how I feel. I have done everything right. Studied a hard to get qualification, working for a good financial company, was very comfortable, and the past 3-4 years has just eroded all of that. I have no flashy expenses. The next luxury to go would probably be my ADSL line at home which is a 2mb Afrihost package so not exactly fancy. I don't drive a fancy car not does the wife. I live in a very average home and it just does not feel like my salary can stretch anymore. The wife has started taking on more part time work to help us afford some luxuries but its making me angry how screwed over good middle class people are. It just feels wrong. Hence my underlying frustration.

Don't worry, you're not the only one. Thousands of other people are in the same boat as you.

 

[Messugga]

This is spot on how I feel. I have done everything right. Studied a hard to get qualification, working for a good financial company, was very comfortable, and the past 3-4 years has just eroded all of that. I have no flashy expenses. The next luxury to go would probably be my ADSL line at home which is a 2mb Afrihost package so not exactly fancy. I don't drive a fancy car not does the wife. I live in a very average home and it just does not feel like my salary can stretch anymore. The wife has started taking on more part time work to help us afford some luxuries but its making me angry how screwed over good middle class people are. It just feels wrong. Hence my underlying frustration.

The days of single income households are gone, I'm afraid.

 

[P924]

This is spot on how I feel. I have done everything right. Studied a hard to get qualification, working for a good financial company, was very comfortable, and the past 3-4 years has just eroded all of that. I have no flashy expenses. The next luxury to go would probably be my ADSL line at home which is a 2mb Afrihost package so not exactly fancy. I don't drive a fancy car not does the wife. I live in a very average home and it just does not feel like my salary can stretch anymore. The wife has started taking on more part time work to help us afford some luxuries but its making me angry how screwed over good middle class people are. It just feels wrong. Hence my underlying frustration.

That sounds really strange that you would be in that situation. You should be able to manage very well with what you are earning, and if your wife is also working it should really not be a problem.

 

[XennoX]

I've honestly not had many people resign. If they're good people and try their best with their work, I'll fight for them to get as much out of the company as possible, in terms of salary, training, etc. I think they usually appreciate that, although I usually come across as a bit of an idiot, initially.

How so? You made the statement that you are in finance and hire many charted accountants and the like. Do you have a formal education in commerce and finance? I've seen it quite a lot, where people will brush someone off because they do not have the requisite domain knowledge and/or formal education. Whilst management does not require you to have domain knowledge, I do think domain knowledge gives you an appreciation of the work done by subordinates.

Not to say that there haven't been people that left due to feeling they're underpaid. It happens. I just find that when people are unhappy with other aspects of their work life, they often jump to more money being the solution. If you manage to keep them happy, they tend to stay happy with their salaries as well.

Yes, I agree. It is a shame that management of many companies do not realise that changes to company policy can do wonders for staff productivity and happiness. One such policy I would happily see implemented here by me is flexible working hours and the ability to work remotely. The few days I was able to work from home, productivity rocketed and I was more cheerful as I did not have to sit in traffic for 3 hours nor did I have to attend any meetings - it was a dream come true.

If the company values you, then you would know it already. If your'e not sure, then you just a pleb.

Yes and no. Sometimes companies will try to pay you as little as possible, despite the fact that they value you. From a pure bottom-line perspective this makes sense. As Messugga pointed out, there are other ways to improve employee happiness.

 

[The_Librarian]

Yes, I agree. It is a shame that management of many companies do not realise that changes to company policy can do wonders for staff productivity and happiness. One such policy I would happily see implemented here by me is flexible working hours and the ability to work remotely. The few days I was able to work from home, productivity rocketed and I was more cheerful as I did not have to sit in traffic for 3 hours nor did I have to attend any meetings - it was a dream come true.

Plus you can wear whatever clothes you want

 

[Messugga]

How so? You made the statement that you are in finance and hire many charted accountants and the like. Do you have a formal education in commerce and finance? I've seen it quite a lot, where people will brush someone off because they do not have the requisite domain knowledge and/or formal education. Whilst management does not require you to have domain knowledge, I do think domain knowledge gives you an appreciation of the work done by subordinates.

An idiot more in terms of interpersonal skills rather than ability My communication style is direct and to the point. This rubs some people the wrong way as a first impression. It's something I've been working on the last few years.
People say things like "at first I thought he was a rude ass, but after getting to know him I realised that I can lean on him when things get tough and he'll have my back."
Just not a huge people person/one for small talk.

I'm technical, by training. My job is primarily to figure out workarounds/solutions for problems, typically within investment banking and short term insurance.

 

[XennoX]

That sounds really strange that you would be in that situation. You should be able to manage very well with what you are earning, and if your wife is also working it should really not be a problem.

Indeed. Look the thing is, we don't know what OP's lifestyle is. We do not know what the OP considers to be average. For instance, my version of average is staying in a 2 bedroom apartment, in a non-crime ridden area with good amenities such as, decent mobile reception, access to ADSL, access to a daily grocer, etc. Kosmosdal strikes me as such an area.

On a related story, my parents used to go to pretty pricey restaurants 4 to 6 times a month, used to go out somewhere almost every weekend and used to have stupidly crazy telephone bills because they phoned everyone. Restaurant trips would be about R3000 a month, telephone bills used to be in the region of R2000 (total) and travel costs used to be about R3000 per month.

My folks started hitting rough times about 3 years ago and they couldn't figure out where all their money was going. So I did an impromptu lifestyle evaluation for them. Noticed the crazy expenditure. Instead of going to a crazy restaurant, go to something more common or buy decent meat and veg and cook it yourself (experiment!), I introduced them to Skype and the cell phone bills plummeted and they stopped travelling as much.