'Give blacks their share'

[darkevil]

Having lived in several African countries (south of the Sahara) since 1961 — starting with the Congo, later Zaire, and then DRC again — it has been a painful experience. The countries with a colonial history were unprepared for the task of 'independence'. These countries had to learn the hard way but finally things are changing.

However, South Africa remains a different cup of tea. For hundreds of years the majority of the South Africa's population was down-trodden and generation after generation was made to have a low self-esteem through the psychological act of racism. The majority was denied of getting their fair share of land.

Money is not everything in life and the blacks in many African countries are economically poorer than the blacks in South Africa but still they are better off. They have not for generations been made to believe they are second to the white man when it comes to IQ.

Some time back it was suggested that white South Africans should apologize to black South Africans. That came to nothing. In that context giving 40 percent of the land back to the black South African population is a much better handshake from the whites. And even so the whites still remain with a better deal.

In 1945 in Europe most of the people behind the iron curtain lost all their properties as part of the history. In such context losing only 40 percent is an evolution of fairness. The greed of the white Rhodesians resulted in losing everything. The winner took it all (though wasted it, but that's another issue). The history of Europe is full of the same.

Considering the winner could take it all, 40 percent is a very civilized figure, a small donation in the name of justice.

Suggestions as made by Agriculture Minister Tina Joemat-Pettersson that farmers should transfer up to 40 percent of their farm value to black shareholders.
http://business.iafrica.com/opinion/2415820.htm


This suggestion is not practical.:wtf:

 

[Frankie]

I say, work for what you want, just like I did.

 

[Necuno]

I say, work for what you want, just like I did.

and vote with your brain... if you have one.

 

[general_koffi]

It's a veiled attempt by the state to sieze more wealth for itself and its cronies. Aside from killing people, which is generally what states do best, this is their speciality.

If persecuting people based on the colour of their skin is fallacious, which I'm sure we all agree it is, then so is patronising them on the same basis. This is especially true considering that it is impossible for a state to patronise one group of people without persecuting another, for the state does not generate wealth - it simply takes most of it and distributes the rest as it sees fit.

If someone has been wronged, then there are remedies under the law by which they may be compensated. There should be no need to collectivise suffering or responsibility, for suffering is a profoundly individual experience - there were black people who benefitted from Apartheid, believe it or not. Not too many, but then the state can never benefit more than a minority of its subjects, even if it pretends to. Apartheid was a gross miscarriage of justice - a hideous example of what happens when the state has too much power - but one does not rectify the atrocities committed by the Apartheid state by giving its key orchestrators amnesty and transferring the blame onto white South Africans in general, and yet this is the farce of the ANC's grand liberation. There is no justice to it at all. Of course it's not only white South Africans who are harmed by their crony-enriching - it is everyone who is not a crony.

 

[undesign]

Ok, I'll feed the troll.

So how will this work - do they throw all white land owners' names in a lottery and pick 40% for transfer or do you subdivide every single piece of white owned land and transfer 40% of it. My erf is almost fully built, so I guess I could donate one bedroom, a bathroom, a stoep and a piece of the garage.

Do I get discount for the 40% marginal tax rate I "qualify" for? Of which probably 98% goes to PDI's.

Is it only whites, or the Sexwales of our country also?



/flamesuit on

 

[seventhson]

It's a veiled attempt by the state to sieze more wealth for itself and its cronies. Aside from killing people, which is generally what states do best, this is their speciality.

If persecuting people based on the colour of their skin is fallacious, which I'm sure we all agree it is, then so is patronising them on the same basis. This is especially true considering that it is impossible for a state to patronise one group of people without persecuting another, for the state does not generate wealth - it simply takes most of it and distributes the rest as it sees fit.

If someone has been wronged, then there are remedies under the law by which they may be compensated. There should be no need to collectivise suffering or responsibility, for suffering is a profoundly individual experience - there were black people who benefitted from Apartheid, believe it or not. Not too many, but then the state can never benefit more than a minority of its subjects, even if it pretends to. Apartheid was a gross miscarriage of justice - a hideous example of what happens when the state has too much power - but one does not rectify the atrocities committed by the Apartheid state by giving its key orchestrators amnesty and transferring the blame onto white South Africans in general, and yet this is the farce of the ANC's grand liberation. There is no justice to it at all. Of course it's not only white South Africans who are harmed by their crony-enriching - it is everyone who is not a crony.

Nice post. Every body will suffer if they are not cronies. Even if the government fools the black people in thinking once we are gone life will be better. And yet they will still suffer and they will suffer even more so. It will not be the average man on the street who will benefit but the fat cats in the government and there cronies.

 

[Ancalagon]

To black shareholders? You mean the corrupt ones that demand it in exchange for nothing, not even time or expertise, and then rip off their black workers, the same ones they are supposed to empower? Like that mine?

Please... all you achieve is that you transfer wealth from the white rich elite to the black rich elite. You dont reduce the amount of black people living in poverty.

The solution, although it isnt a popular one, is a longer term transfer of wealth involving government incentives for black entrepreneurs, especially currently (and not previously) disadvantaged ones, as well as better access to education. That would take a while to work, but then, how long has SA been under white rule? Did you really expect they could sort it out in 10 years?

Sadly, the government is too busy enriching itself to notice that the blacks in poverty are no better off than 16 years ago.

 

[Kornhub]

Ok you guys can give your land away to make it fair

 

[general_koffi]

To black shareholders? You mean the corrupt ones that demand it in exchange for nothing, not even time or expertise, and then rip off their black workers, the same ones they are supposed to empower? Like that mine?

Please... all you achieve is that you transfer wealth from the white rich elite to the black rich elite. You dont reduce the amount of black people living in poverty.

Agree so far... Their sin isn't being part of the 'rich elite', though. They're rich because their wealth is taken from others and given to them by the state - this is the problem. If someone gets rich the honest way, it's a good thing. Although obviously they shouldn't be patronised by the state in any way either.

The solution, although it isnt a popular one, is a longer term transfer of wealth involving government incentives for black entrepreneurs, especially currently (and not previously) disadvantaged ones, as well as better access to education. That would take a while to work, but then, how long has SA been under white rule? Did you really expect they could sort it out in 10 years?

Sadly, the government is too busy enriching itself to notice that the blacks in poverty are no better off than 16 years ago.

I disagree. The solution is even simpler and even more unpopular than that, and the state cannot implement it for us.

The solution is for people to recognise that you have no right to take someone else's land simply because your great-grandfather was a farmer somewhere in that area once upon a time you think. The solution is to respect property rights. The solution is to find a way of making money the honest way, like everyone else. I know property rights weren't respected in the past, but two wrongs don't make a right. You don't go around punching the descendents of every person who punched your ancestors, so why is it okay when it's stealing?

Obviously if someone takes your land unlawfully, you can claim it back in any court of law. There's no need for radical state intervention there. I'm afraid something that belonged to your ancestors is only yours if they left it to you in their will. I don't see how this would be possible if you hadn't been born yet.

 

[Gnome]

Money is not everything in life and the blacks in many African countries are economically poorer than the blacks in South Africa but still they are better off.

BAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

I don't see people streaming into other African countries the way they do into SA. Seems they'd rather come over here and be trash than live in their politically correct and "free" nations elsewhere. And by trash I mean contempt from black people in SA because 95% of white SA citizens can't tell one black person apart from another forget where they came from.

Really all SA white people should leave this country to it's own devices. I predict Zim 2.0 x 10 at which point they'll blame all white people (AKA the agents) for their misfortunes.

 

[Otumeel]

I wish that black people could understand that the position they are in is not because of the white man's advantage OVER the blacks but because of their own lacking AMONG the whites.

 

[the graduate]

It's a veiled attempt by the state to sieze more wealth for itself and its cronies. Aside from killing people, which is generally what states do best, this is their speciality.

If persecuting people based on the colour of their skin is fallacious, which I'm sure we all agree it is, then so is patronising them on the same basis. This is especially true considering that it is impossible for a state to patronise one group of people without persecuting another, for the state does not generate wealth - it simply takes most of it and distributes the rest as it sees fit.

If someone has been wronged, then there are remedies under the law by which they may be compensated. There should be no need to collectivise suffering or responsibility, for suffering is a profoundly individual experience - there were black people who benefitted from Apartheid, believe it or not. Not too many, but then the state can never benefit more than a minority of its subjects, even if it pretends to. Apartheid was a gross miscarriage of justice - a hideous example of what happens when the state has too much power - but one does not rectify the atrocities committed by the Apartheid state by giving its key orchestrators amnesty and transferring the blame onto white South Africans in general, and yet this is the farce of the ANC's grand liberation. There is no justice to it at all. Of course it's not only white South Africans who are harmed by their crony-enriching - it is everyone who is not a crony.

Good post, I agree...

 

[the graduate]

To black shareholders? You mean the corrupt ones that demand it in exchange for nothing, not even time or expertise, and then rip off their black workers, the same ones they are supposed to empower? Like that mine?

Please... all you achieve is that you transfer wealth from the white rich elite to the black rich elite. You dont reduce the amount of black people living in poverty.

The solution, although it isnt a popular one, is a longer term transfer of wealth involving government incentives for black entrepreneurs, especially currently (and not previously) disadvantaged ones, as well as better access to education. That would take a while to work, but then, how long has SA been under white rule? Did you really expect they could sort it out in 10 years?

Sadly, the government is too busy enriching itself to notice that the blacks in poverty are no better off than 16 years ago.

Good post...

 

[the graduate]

I would love to be given a farm, but it would be the biggest mistake 'the giver' would do in his life. I can't farm, I don't have the finances, expertise or experience to run a farm...

Anyways, I think a constructive debate around solutions to the land issue is needed. I firmly believe that many people on this forum has given it thought and it would be great if everyone shared their idea of wealth/land redistibution.

If I were a farmer and I HAD to give up some land, I'll start with my workers. Systematically transfere land over to them as they generate an income from the land. Help them farm and as their 'business skill' improves, let them buy their 'allocated' piece of land from the farms....and a market related price - 35%....maybe not fair to the farmer....its not the best plan, but then I'm not a farmer.

I would hate to see land invasions....its the silliest and dumbest thing to do...and there are people/thugs just waiting for such mayhem to break loose and capatalize on some violence and looting....

Rather work or find ways to distibute land to the current workers of the land and help them become self sustaining and then commertially productive...

just an idea...

 

[D.B.Cooper]

Wonder if that includes land bought after '94, as well? Now that would make an interesting question.

 

[blunomore]

I wish that black people could understand that the position they are in is not because of the white man's advantage OVER the blacks but because of their own lacking AMONG the whites.

There is a very controversial book written by Dr Chika Onyeani entitled Capitalist N igger: The Road to Success: A Spider Web Doctrine.

The book basically asserts that the Black race is a consumer race and not a productive race.

Here is the synopsis from Wiki:

Says the author, Chika Onyeani, "We are a conquered race and it is utterly foolish for us to believe that we are independent. The Black Race depends on other communities for its culture, its language, its feeding, and its clothing." "Despite enormous natural resources," according to the author, "Blacks are economic slaves because they lack the "killer-instinct" and "devil-may-care" attitude of the Caucasian, as well as the "spider web economic mentality" of the Asian." The author is not afraid to use the word '******' in both pejorative or stereotypic senses. He says, "It is not what you call me, but what I answer to, that matters most."

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalist_******)

I do not think this is necessarily true, because you get so many different types of people in every ethnic group that I do NOT think one can stereotype like this. Trust me, not all Caucasians have that "killer-instinct" - in fact, far from it !

 

[CyraxHB]

If the only options to farmers are give your land away for free or face land invasions, I'd take my chances with the invasions.

At least then the whole country would fall into chaos and the ones perpetrating the invasions would suffer too.

 

[Gawain]

It will never wash - and once they have given 40% ... What happens when that is not enough and you have to give more?

I cannot see one farmer agreeing to this so the state will have to take all their land or nothing.

The state owns vast tracks of land and can start there

 

[Ady]

I say, work for what you want, just like I did.

+1

Give give give give give (makes me sick).

 

[BBSA]

I worked hard for my farm why can they not do the same?

Will they also take 40% of my bond?