Help from you educated fellows.

[flippakitten]

Hey all,

I would like to get some paper behind my many years experience. I have absolutely no qualifications apart from some certs from Pluralsight. I work full time as a software engineer, with a family, which means I can only do it distance, preferably online.

The only thing I can find that comes close to what I need is http://www.theitacademy.co.za/tcp-2_30_285-web-developer-or-programmer.html but that doesn't look like it could lead to further study relatively easily.

My ideal would be if I could do a 1 year program that gives me some kind of qualification in the IT Industry which counts towards further study.

Any help or advice, or programs with recognized qualifications would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Bobbin]

Sorry I don't have any references to what you're looking for however if it turns out you can't find anything you could always build your résumé (If that's the intention) based on provable results/projects etc... Even if you undertake private projects, that you can display at will, to show your proficiency in learned skills as you study from whatever/whomever you want. Do you think they would worry about Mark Zuckerberg's qualifications before they hire him? (Actually as I typed that I was curious... the guy dropped out of college apparently?)

Might be worth more than a piece of paper that shows how good you are at being a parrot Although I say that without any dev experience so I wouldn't know the format/quality of testing in that industry.

 

[flippakitten]

Sorry I don't have any references to what you're looking for however if it turns out you can't find anything you could always build your résumé (If that's the intention) based on provable results/projects etc... Even if you undertake private projects, that you can display at will, to show your proficiency in learned skills as you study from whatever/whomever you want. Do you think they would worry about Mark Zuckerberg's qualifications before they hire him? (Actually as I typed that I was curious... the guy dropped out of college apparently?)

Might be worth more than a piece of paper that shows how good you are at being a parrot Although I say that without any dev experience so I wouldn't know the format/quality of testing in that industry.

Thanks for the reply.
I have always agreed with that concept and have been working at it for the last 14 years, the issue is when you deal with points systems, unless you can check the boxes for education, you don't get the points and there seems to be little human interaction to asses external criteria which is why I need the paper work.

 

[Ancalagon]

If you want something that you can do remotely, that counts towards further study, the only thing I can think of is a UNISA degree in computer science or informatics.

Your remote only requirement is what makes this difficult. You can study further via Coursera or Edx, but none of those count for further education. Some Masters programs however might accept your work experience and professional certifications.

In fact, that might be your best bet - professional qualifications rather than degrees. Look at the Microsoft programs offered via Edx.

 

[flippakitten]

Thank you, Coursera is one of the main driving forces in this current search but it doesn't make sense to spend so much time doing something that's not really worth anything.

I'm looking at ending up with something like https://www.coursera.org/degrees/master-of-computer-science-illinois. The cost of that program is quite massive though and acceptance is another thing, so I need to start somewhere, that's how I ended up at the IT Academy.

 

[Cius]

WITS university (engineering schools) allows a Graduate diploma in engineering (or GDE for short) for people with experience. It is 6 lecture type courses but does require some flexi time to attend the lectures. If you do well enough in that you can apply to convert to a full M.Eng, which then requires an additional 6 credits. Knew a few guys in your shoes on it when I was doing my M.Eng after my undergrad degree. They saw it as a backup plan to get to Aus as the M.Eng is recognised there as a full degree and is relatively easy to get compared to a Unisa degree.

 

[cguy]

Thank you, Coursera is one of the main driving forces in this current search but it doesn't make sense to spend so much time doing something that's not really worth anything.

I'm looking at ending up with something like https://www.coursera.org/degrees/master-of-computer-science-illinois. The cost of that program is quite massive though and acceptance is another thing, so I need to start somewhere, that's how I ended up at the IT Academy.

One requirement for that course is a 4 year bachelors degree. I suggest starting with the BSc via UNISA route if you want that kind of education.

 

[cguy]

WITS university (engineering schools) allows a Graduate diploma in engineering (or GDE for short) for people with experience. It is 6 lecture type courses but does require some flexi time to attend the lectures. If you do well enough in that you can apply to convert to a full M.Eng, which then requires an additional 6 credits. Knew a few guys in your shoes on it when I was doing my M.Eng after my undergrad degree. They saw it as a backup plan to get to Aus as the M.Eng is recognised there as a full degree and is relatively easy to get compared to a Unisa degree.

There's another thread in this sub forum about that course that was updated recently. I agree that it's a fast way to get a piece of paper, but if it's actually education you want, I would give it a wide berth. I am fairly certain that any graduate from that M.Eng. wouldn't get past a phone screen anywhere I've worked.

 

[Cius]

There's another thread in this sub forum about that course that was updated recently. I agree that it's a fast way to get a piece of paper, but if it's actually education you want, I would give it a wide berth. I am fairly certain that any graduate from that M.Eng. wouldn't get past a phone screen anywhere I've worked.

Er, I am a graduate of that M.Eng program and I found it brilliant. It added a lot to my education that my base engineering degree did not. So as someone with first hand experience of it I found it fairly educational. Otherwise can you recommend an alternative considering his constraints?

 

[cguy]

Er, I am a graduate of that M.Eng program and I found it brilliant. It added a lot to my education that my base engineering degree did not. So as someone with first hand experience of it I found it fairly educational. Otherwise can you recommend an alternative considering his constraints?

I expect that it was a good supplement to your engineering degree, but without an engineering degree, I doubt that it would be a better use of time than doing an actual (base) degree.

 

[Cius]

Perhaps, but not all have that option. And keep in mind the people who did the course with me had already proven ability as software developers with all having 5+ years of industry experience. They did not need to learn how to code (nor does the GDE serve that purpose). They needed the paper. The GDE is designed to teach more advanced skills and assumes you already have base knowledge either via a degree or equivalent experience. To be honest I have never seen a degree that makes a good developer. Every good developer I know was mostly self taught, any courses where incidental. I knew many who passed software development 1,2, and 3 at uni and where absolutely useless in practical coding scenario's.

I went for the industrial eng M.Eng to broaden my education but two of my courses where at the school of information eng and both courses where extremely valuable to me. I did software project management with prof Barry Myburgh. He is one of the most experienced SW project managers I have encountered and his advice on how to get the projects done despite delays, unreasonable customer demands, and constantly shifting goalposts are hugely valuable to me today as where his models on managing software though its entire lifecycle. I also did selected topics in software engineering and it taught me so much about the whole waterfall vs agile debate and how to approach the software engineering methodology problem in industry. Again, I use that today in my job as a manager of a software development team.

So anyways, my point is it was valuable, and I suspect it would have been valuable to guys with experience or just the degree. Either way I would recommend only tackling something like that once you have work experience as much of what I learned as part of my M.Eng would have made no sense if I had never experienced working in a formal environment. Its geared towards helping you improve the typical status quo and has some amazing staff (or did when I did it a decade ago).

 

[cguy]

Perhaps, but not all have that option. And keep in mind the people who did the course with me had already proven ability as software developers with all having 5+ years of industry experience. They did not need to learn how to code (nor does the GDE serve that purpose). They needed the paper. The GDE is designed to teach more advanced skills and assumes you already have base knowledge either via a degree or equivalent experience. To be honest I have never seen a degree that makes a good developer. Every good developer I know was mostly self taught, any courses where incidental. I knew many who passed software development 1,2, and 3 at uni and where absolutely useless in practical coding scenario's

I am far less concerned withe software development 1, 2 and 3, than I am with computer science, stats, mathematics, engineering, and/or other science subjects, research methodology, and the type of reasoning that comes along with it. The idea behind a degree isn't to "make a good software developer", it's to provide the tools so that when combined with self-teaching, and the inevitable experience people will get in industry, the person will become more effective. The vast majority of the best developers I know are self-taught AND have a degree.

I went for the industrial eng M.Eng to broaden my education but two of my courses where at the school of information eng and both courses where extremely valuable to me. I did software project management with prof Barry Myburgh. He is one of the most experienced SW project managers I have encountered and his advice on how to get the projects done despite delays, unreasonable customer demands, and constantly shifting goalposts are hugely valuable to me today as where his models on managing software though its entire lifecycle. I also did selected topics in software engineering and it taught me so much about the whole waterfall vs agile debate and how to approach the software engineering methodology problem in industry. Again, I use that today in my job as a manager of a software development team.

I think the course would make a fine certificate, but it's hardly degree material. How did you find the difficulty level compared to your B.Eng. degree?

 

[flippakitten]

Thanks for the information Cius, I had a look at WITS and I've sent off a request for some more information to get the ball rolling.

 

[flippakitten]

One requirement for that course is a 4 year bachelors degree. I suggest starting with the BSc via UNISA route if you want that kind of education.

Thank you, I have been looking into that and I am trying to see if my age + experience can get me into that program.

There are plenty of options when you look outside our borders with options that are much more relevant to my industry but unless you are a resident of said country, the costs go form R60 000 to R190 000.

That being said, I plan on studying outside of South Africa and I need 86 more points to become "more" eligible for migration, so what I am looking for is basically:

One-year degree, diploma or certificate from a university, college, trade or technical school, or other institute

 

[[)roi(]]

That being said, I plan on studying outside of South Africa and I need 86 more points to become "more" eligible for migration, so what I am looking for is basically:

In that case I suggest you look at degree / diplomas options available from the country that you are targeting for migration.

For example:
If you were looking at Australia: they have an extensive list of institutions that cater to distance based learning and the programmes are not only better managed than Unisa, their syllabus is in general more up to date and inline with similar paths of study in the US. Only negative is that they're more expensive than Unisa.

 

[Ancalagon]

There aren't really shortcuts I'm afraid.

You can teach yourself just about anything you want to know, with the Internet and unstructured Internet. But you won't have a piece of paper proving that you know anything.

You can study all of the online courses you want, but none of them will give you a recognizable degree. Maybe with the exception of Coursera's degree programs, which not only are hideously expensive but are questionable in terms of how recognizable they really are.

You have 3 levers to play with - cost, time and accessibility. And the output you want is something recognizable. There is nothing available that takes 1 year to do, gives you a degree, is accessible from home, and is cheap.

Check that points calculator thing again and see what your options are. See if professional qualifications count, for example.

 

[flippakitten]

For example:
If you were looking at Australia: they have an extensive list of institutions that cater to distance based learning and the programmes are not only better managed than Unisa, their syllabus is in general more up to date and inline with similar paths of study in the US. Only negative is that they're more expensive than Unisa.

Definitely, the international programs are far superior in content and Australia and New Zealand have some brilliant courses, I was considering the Bachelor of Information Sciences (Software Engineering) program but costs are just crazy when you don't live there. As goes for everywhere.

There aren't really shortcuts I'm afraid.

You can teach yourself just about anything you want to know, with the Internet and unstructured Internet. But you won't have a piece of paper proving that you know anything.

You can study all of the online courses you want, but none of them will give you a recognizable degree. Maybe with the exception of Coursera's degree programs, which not only are hideously expensive but are questionable in terms of how recognizable they really are.

You have 3 levers to play with - cost, time and accessibility. And the output you want is something recognizable. There is nothing available that takes 1 year to do, gives you a degree, is accessible from home, and is cheap.

Check that points calculator thing again and see what your options are. See if professional qualifications count, for example.

Everything you say here is 100% true and my exact worries regarding Coursera, except the Degrees, which when you get down to the meat you actually apply to the University and then pay Coursera extra for stuff. I've been digging through the layers of international education options. The professional and vendor certifications also count in a sense of "Yes I know Kafka and Spark" which is brilliant if that's what you need but they don't fit the criteria or boost enough points ie. Certificate 25 points, 1 year degree/diploma/cert 84 points, 2 year program 91 and so on. It does count for Australia though.

 

[flippakitten]

All in all though if anyone stumbles on this thread, the answer is a BACHELOR OF SCIENCE in Computing from Unisa.

The reason is after the first year you are basically NQF 5 (Higher Certificate), Second Year NQF6 (Diploma), 3rd NQF7 and it counts as such on paper in the eyes of immigration people.

So you get more points for each year you complete and the worse thing that can happen is you end up with a degree.

So once you've finished your first, second or third year and say you go over, you can then apply to have your credits converted and carry on at a foreign institution and pay domestic rates. You will have to forfeit some of your credits most likely but it's better than nothing.

As for an international example, New Zealand(not where I want to go), the price difference is R90,000 per year for local and R330,000 per year for international for 3 years, R1 000 000.

But thanks for all the direction and guidance! Every piece of advice here excellent.

 

[^^vampire^^]

All in all though if anyone stumbles on this thread, the answer is a BACHELOR OF SCIENCE in Computing from Unisa.

The reason is after the first year you are basically NQF 5 (Higher Certificate), Second Year NQF6 (Diploma), 3rd NQF7 and it counts as such on paper in the eyes of immigration people.

So you get more points for each year you complete and the worse thing that can happen is you end up with a degree.

So once you've finished your first, second or third year and say you go over, you can then apply to have your credits converted and carry on at a foreign institution and pay domestic rates. You will have to forfeit some of your credits most likely but it's better than nothing.

As for an international example, New Zealand(not where I want to go), the price difference is R90,000 per year for local and R330,000 per year for international for 3 years, R1 000 000.

But thanks for all the direction and guidance! Every piece of advice here excellent.

Australia and NZ have authorities which will assess your previous work experience regardless of a degree. How the actual assessment is done I am not sure but there are people who have gone through that process to get the points they needed for a visa.

As an aside I would definitely do the BSc in Computing through UNISA. This is two fold as it teaches you some skills you may not already have as a software dev as well as you get a proper degree after. Doing a degree solely in exactly what you know may be easier (BTech in IT for example) but it will be hella boring and it is then just grind work.

Another thing to consider is you may get the degree but for immigration to Aus they only count experience 2-3 after degree completion when assessing professional experience from a degree qualified immigrant. This means that if you start now and manage to finish the degree in the min 3 year period, you have 6 years to go from today before they start counting experience. That means in 7 years time you will have 1 year of professional experience to use to add points to your visa application. Realistically a 3 year unisa degree will take at least 5-6 years, meaning then that you have 8-9 years before your experience starts counting. You are better off going with the assessment for previous skilled employment.

 

[animal531]

Alternative idea.

If you have N years of experience as a developer, then simply adding a degree covering the same thing might not be the best (assuming of course that you're a good developer and already know most of what the degree will cover).

Why not make it in an ancillary field like math or something? Then you have both development experience and a new shiny degree in something that can add a lot to your development (instead of just being a piece of paper).

But if it's just to count as a qualification to get into a different country, then the easy route of the thing you know well might be the best/easiest way to go.