Help me find a solution?

[WhiteRaven]

What about where you would look for positions? I've got the what not to do but what about where to find you and where to post? Would you prefer to be on a mailing list, mobile group?

 

[Ancalagon]

LinkedIn is probably your best bet.

PNet is also good - think you can catch a lot of people there.

Absolutely do not use a mailing list! If I get emails advertising positions available that have nothing to do with me, I know that the recruiter is spamming and hoping for the best.

Review the skills of the candidates that you have worked with in the past, and see if you can find one which is a match for the position you have. Then email only those few.

Do not use the shotgun approach!

 

[^^vampire^^]

Location vs Salary. Many recruiters seem to be completely immune to this.

I currently work 15 mins from work and everyone tries to punt Sandton on me. I say sure but I need to be compensated for the extra 4 hours daily that I will have to deal with traffic which means the increase I'm looking for is a min of 20k.

Even a job requiring 1 hour there and 1 hour back means on average I will be doing 31.5 hours more time in the car, never mind the increase in petrol. I've actually built out a spreadsheet that I've started sending to recruiters to justify my position. I would have to get a R15k increase If I was doing a 2 hour round trip daily just to get a raise of R1500 per month.

Businesses seem completely oblivious to work/life balance in this country. If it takes me longer to get to work than what it takes currently, the employer shall be paying for that. Businesses also need to realise that the ratio of people in IT that can actually do the job vs job opportunities puts the bargaining chip largely in the employees favour. I don't need them to employ me - they are mostly the ones that require someone to work there, I already have a job so they need to motivate me to move. I'm not swayed by someone offering "market related" salaries. Sorry the market is full of underachievers which means I am FAR above the market average, never mind the fact that the market vastly underpays already.

I'll gladly send you my payslips but dont think for a second I'm taking R5k more than I'm earning now. My payslip has no bearing on what I want per se, and if they aren't willing to give me what I want I'm not willing to entertain their circus.


Other things:
* Don't contact a candidate with a fantastic opportunity that is 5k more than what they were earning 4 years ago. There salary will be hugely different now. Rather ask them how their career has progressed and what they are looking for and then match jobs to the updated info. I've recently started keeping a list of those companies that do this and I refuse to deal with them - they will struggle to remove themselves from this list.
* Like others said, don't ask me to fill out a skills matrix. When I'm looking for a job, chances are that you will be bombarded by 15-30 different agents. I'm not filling out 15-30 skills matrices, it's listed on my CV and that's your job, not mine.
* Don't ask me to come for an interview with you. I'm a full time employed developer. I don't have the time to meet with 1 person, let alone 15-30 agents. it's hard enough making the excuses about the doctor, the dentist and my grandma just to go to one 3 round interview.
* Educate the businesses that you recruiting for that potential candidates are people too. They have full time jobs and can't take off a work day for each interview they go for. One interview can be a 3 round interview which means you must then take off 3 days of work just for that one without any guarantee of success. It's not worth it. If you want a quality candidate you need to take the extra time. As stated previously its a devs market, if you are not willing to make the time that's inconvenient for you, neither am I,
* Don't bother getting back in contact if I've had to chase you for feedback. Good recruiters are proactive.
* All the details of a good candidate are on the CV - don't contact me asking stupid questions. I have listed my current CTC, what it is including and excluding bonuses, what my current benefits are, I've even gone as far as listing which suburbs I will and won't work in. If you send me a job opportunity to the contrary you get added to the list. I'm not willing to work in Sandton. EVERY recruiter so far has sent me an opportunity for Sandton!
* Don't try and negotiate my asking price down so you can try and make a "sale". If you're not willing to put in the hard work to get me placed then don't waste my or your time.

 

[retromodcoza]

* Don't try and negotiate my asking price down so you can try and make a "sale". If you're not willing to put in the hard work to get me placed then don't waste my or your time.

This.

Developers are going to find your posts. Don't worry. They have the Internet and Google and they know how to use them. You ARE reaching just about ALL the developers you could possibly reach , especially if you are posting on MyBroadBand

You can't get candidates because this is mostly a game of money and you aren't paying enough. Candidates will downplay the importance of salary to sound as though they care about the job. In reality though , they are in it mostly for the salary and benefits. If you paid Vampire above enough , for all his bitching , he would move anywhere. If you were paying him R150,000 a month , his response to "How was the Sandton traffic this morning?" would be "An absolute pleasure. By the way - may I shine your shoes?".

Demand for developers has ballooned in the last 5 years and salaries have not kept pace with demand. We are in a space in time where there is immense upward pressure on salaries , which results in shortages , job hopping and head hunting.

Try and get the companies you have on your list to recognize this. Try and pay what salaries will be 12 months from now , and not what they are currently. Hire less developers and better ones at a higher rate. Fighting the salary upsurge is a losing battle. Those with the market power always win - and currently thats developers - not companies.

 

[JackWhite]

Prefer to deal directly with the company than via a recruiter. Was hoping LinkedIn would offer this but it was short lived until the scums took over. Companies too have they issues with recruiter agencies. The cost saving must be quite significant for companies to persist using agencies rather than reverting back to direct so we have to just live with it.

 

[Ancalagon]

The only case where I would be willing to accept a lower salary, or one equal to what I am earning now, is if I am changing roles and going for a role that I am not that experienced in.

If you are hiring me in the field I am most qualified in, then you need to pay me more, end of story.

 

[JackWhite]

Try and get the companies you have on your list to recognize this. Try and pay what salaries will be 12 months from now , and not what they are currently. Hire less developers and better ones at a higher rate. Fighting the salary upsurge is a losing battle. Those with the market power always win - and currently thats developers - not companies.

On Adzuna, if I type in my primary skill and salary range +10%, I only get back 4 unique jobs I could apply for. Salary indication is very important to reach us candidates.

 

[Baxteen]

I just moved companies.
my CTC became less.
I lost medical aid and pension.
I went from a Large corporate to a small 5 man team.
here I have the ability to grow.
but most important reason why I left, my payslip will no longer say Junior Developer.

so far I am very happy with my move.

but OP PM me some more details about this Client, what they are looking for, and I can tell you why I ignored the add, because I was looking, and I did not see anything that was multi language multi location like you described.
maybe that will help a bit more?

 

[WhiteRaven]

but OP PM me some more details about this Client, what they are looking for, and I can tell you why I ignored the add, because I was looking, and I did not see anything that was multi language multi location like you described.
maybe that will help a bit more?

Wasn't for a specific position but we have requirements with our clients across all languages and locations, just trying to figure out how to reach more people and make them realise that i'm not the scummy one

I am also quite HORRIFIED to hear how many of you have had this "lower salary" expectation, what the royal bean bag is wrong with the consultants you have been dealing with.. less money for you means less comm for them.. ummm what! I will NEVER let a candidate drop their salary EVER its insane to expect that. jeeze i won't drop my salary how the h*ll can I expect anyone else to drop theirs.. :wtf:

I would really like to say thank you to you all for the help so far, the more insight you can give me the more I can do for you all here.

 

[seanyp00h]

I'm quite enjoying this thread.

Nearly all the jobs I have been sent by recruiters have very little about the actual benefits. Its not very exciting getting a spec which lists your expected duties, how you should be a team player etc.

Tell me about the 13th cheques or the other office in the maldives we get to work from twice a year.

 

[retromodcoza]

Wasn't for a specific position but we have requirements with our clients across all languages and locations, just trying to figure out how to reach more people and make them realise that i'm not the scummy one

Having conversations like this on forums is definitely helping your cause. Most recruiters won't. Perhaps hang around and develop a reputation as "the recruiter guy on mybroadband"? Ask questions , help out , make comments...etc.

 

[cguy]

So pretty much all the stuff that you don't like we don't do. But I feel that because there are a million positions out there for developers no matter how we advertise we are not reaching them. So if the advertising isn't working how do we attract Dev's, how do we get into that network?

Here are some examples of my ads:

http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php/704348-Vacancy-C-Web-Developer-(intermediate)-Sandton-R45-000-CTC-neg

https://plus.google.com/u/0/115429676670688377256/posts

I try to steer clear of job portals for advertising and stay on social networking including Linked In

Does advertising even really work anymore? I don't really think I know of anyone who has applied for a job based on an advertisement they've seen. Every job I've taken has been from a recruiter contacting me, usually someone who has done their homework on the industry, on me personally (LinkedIn, contacting colleagues that I and they've worked with, etc.), and my previous and current employers too. They tend to have a very good idea of what someone in my position would consider to be a career advancement, and whether or not my skill set is a likely match for the clients the have in mind.

I've even had recruiters contact me, who know exactly what I do, and what I've done for my company (actually it felt a bit like I was being stalked) - in one situation they even floated this past one of their clients before they even spoke to me, who became very interested in talking to me, which allowed them to take a far more directed approach in trying to on-board me - they also leveraged their client, who unsurprisingly knew more about the industry and job than they did, to try and customize the role for me (also before they had ever talked to me). It's obviously a lot of effort, especially if I don't bite (ultimately I didn't, but I did engage), but I expect that with all the noise out there, the sniper approach trumps the shotgun approach.

See the cryptic about the client is a bit of a difficult one, because good development talent is difficult to source companies will use multiple recruiters if we put the clients name then the client is going to be flooded with calls from recruiters..

You don't have to put it in the advertisement or initial contact email, just tell the candidate when they first respond to you or have a call with you.

 

[noob_saibot]

Is it possible that a stigma has been developed by developers/tech-people against recruiters?

If tech-work is in such high demand, most of the talent can apply anywhere directly and, at the least, get an interview.

The recruiter-spam is also becoming easier to analyze, as you can see that the job opening is from a single company and they are all spamming the jobs-sites.

OP, perhaps your issue is that you are acting as "just another recruitment agency" and because the barrier of entry is low, competition is fierce.

Maybe you should try carving out a niche in your agency, and no, "tech workers" is not a niche anymore.

(PS. It sounds more like a business inefficiency issue than a "I can't find talent to recruit" issue)

 

[Ancalagon]

Is it possible that a stigma has been developed by developers/tech-people against recruiters?

If tech-work is in such high demand, most of the talent can apply anywhere directly and, at the least, get an interview.

The recruiter-spam is also becoming easier to analyze, as you can see that the job opening is from a single company and they are all spamming the jobs-sites.

OP, perhaps your issue is that you are acting as "just another recruitment agency" and because the barrier of entry is low, competition is fierce.

Maybe you should try carving out a niche in your agency, and no, "tech workers" is not a niche anymore.

(PS. It sounds more like a business inefficiency issue than a "I can't find talent to recruit" issue)

I definitely think a lot of developers are disillusioned with recruiters. There are so many recruiters out there, and so many of them are bad.

The way you can stand out, as a recruiter, is by using your contacts at clients to get candidates placements that they ordinarily could not get. For instance, I want to change roles, and that can be difficult to motivate unless you speak to the right person. If a recruiter knows who to talk to, to make that happen, then that is doing something that I could never do alone. That is a value add that benefits all parties.

 

[^^vampire^^]

This.

Developers are going to find your posts. Don't worry. They have the Internet and Google and they know how to use them. You ARE reaching just about ALL the developers you could possibly reach , especially if you are posting on MyBroadBand

You can't get candidates because this is mostly a game of money and you aren't paying enough. Candidates will downplay the importance of salary to sound as though they care about the job. In reality though , they are in it mostly for the salary and benefits. If you paid Vampire above enough , for all his bitching , he would move anywhere. If you were paying him R150,000 a month , his response to "How was the Sandton traffic this morning?" would be "An absolute pleasure. By the way - may I shine your shoes?".

Demand for developers has ballooned in the last 5 years and salaries have not kept pace with demand. We are in a space in time where there is immense upward pressure on salaries , which results in shortages , job hopping and head hunting.

Try and get the companies you have on your list to recognize this. Try and pay what salaries will be 12 months from now , and not what they are currently. Hire less developers and better ones at a higher rate. Fighting the salary upsurge is a losing battle. Those with the market power always win - and currently thats developers - not companies.

For that salary I'll be commuting with my helicopter
All my bitching is because I recently put myself back on the market and encountered a whole host of illiterate idiots trying to send me for interviews. It actually got to be so painful that I decided I would rather be bored in my current job than have to deal with recruiters to make a move. I'm fairly comfortable anyhow so think I'll just take it easy for now.

Some more items:

* When recruiters post ads don't say you are looking for "coding ninjas" or some other "hip" or "cool" words. I automatically assume you, the agency you recruit and your client collectively are a bunch of morons.

* Like someone else said, list the candidate they are looking for, expected duties if they vary from the norm and then salary & benefits. We all already know we are expected to be a "team player" but must also be able to "work unsupervised". I'm aware that I need to be a "go getter" and a "self starter" and all the other buzz words. If potential employers weren't looking for this I'm sure they would stipulate it, and since I've never seen an ad for a "lazy, unmotivated, unfriendly, self centered ******* developer that isn't planning on doing any work or co-operate at any level of business expectation" I'm led to assume that potential employers are looking for talented, honest, likeable and hard working candidates by default. I'm sure listing all those buzz words hasn't cut down in any way, shape or form the applicants that are completely inept anyway.

 

[WhiteRaven]

This has all been so valuable, chatted about positions with a few of the guys from here already and they seem to be happy that i'm not the idiot I may have portrayed myself as by using the word recruiter..

For the rest of this wonderful day I will be going through around 90 c.v.'s in the hope one of them actually can do what they applied for....

and Vampire.. when you actually are ready to go and find THE job, let me know

 

[JackWhite]

All my bitching is because I recently put myself back on the market and encountered a whole host of illiterate idiots trying to send me for interviews. It actually got to be so painful that I decided I would rather be bored in my current job than have to deal with recruiters to make a move. I'm fairly comfortable anyhow so think I'll just take it easy for now.

Same here. Would rather stick around than having to deal with that crap

 

[jman]

Cool thread, enjoying it. Wouldn't mind having a chat with you, @WhiteRaven, at a later stage (quite happy in my current position), simply because you're doing what most other recruiters wouldn't do, and that is get to know what potential employees actually want, and not just care about your commission. Good work

 

[WhiteRaven]

Cool thread, enjoying it. Wouldn't mind having a chat with you, @WhiteRaven, at a later stage (quite happy in my current position), simply because you're doing what most other recruiters wouldn't do, and that is get to know what potential employees actually want, and not just care about your commission. Good work

Thank you appreciate that Whenever you are ready to look at your career options, i'm available to chat.