Help needed - older system surround sound issues

[SauRoNZA]

I disagree totally.

I assume you are stuck on the original uber low quality Pro Logic that coded 4.0 sound across stereo. You can call it surround if you want but I call it duplicated stereo and it hardly ever had any traction in the wild.

So sure it’s possible technically, but it’s not happening in this context.

More likely is that Pro Logic 2 is faking stereo into surround with the dynamic algorithm which makes OP think it’s surround (from the source) but it’s just stereo bullshitted across 5 speakers and usually turns the centre channel to mud which would explain why he can’t hear anyth8ng.

Source ?

That R and W are analogue signals - how does it change to digital? A coax cable isn’t compatible with analogue anyway ? It’s difference impedance

Coax is simply a mono cable, and then transmits a digitally encoded stream instead of playing an analog L/R one.

No special impedance or anything required.

You can take any of these crappy boxed with a unit cables and just use one side for coax and test it yourself. The connector is the same.

There’s no such thing as an analog or digital cable, the device determines if it sends an analog or digital signal based on the port the wire is connected to.

You could use a coat hanger if you could make it connect and it would work just fine.

 

[SauRoNZA]

Shooting blanks @Dolby?

Got multiple notifications and then there’s nothing here.

Don’t Google too fast.

 

[Dolby]

Shooting blanks @Dolby?

Got multiple notifications and then there’s nothing here.

Don’t Google too fast.

I admit I do find a few things strange - but all good

 

[SauRoNZA]

I admit I do find a few things strange - but all good

I’ll admit Dolby Pro Logic can be encoded into a pure stereo transport layer reading about the subsequent upgrades to the systems I just skipped over in favour of proper digital surround.

So yes it’s possible.

I’m sure you’ll agree though it’s deeply inferior and never have I seen content broadcasted in the actual format, so most of the time when we see Pro Logic pop up on the receiver it’s more than likely just pure stereo being upscaled to 5 speakers and sounds like ass.

 

[Dolby]

I’ll admit Dolby Pro Logic can be encoded into a pure stereo transport layer reading about the subsequent upgrades to the systems I just skipped over in favour of proper digital surround.

So yes it’s possible.

I’m sure you’ll agree though it’s deeply inferior and never have I seen content broadcasted in the actual format, so most of the time when we see Pro Logic pop up on the receiver it’s more than likely just pure stereo being upscaled to 5 speakers and sounds like ass.

How old are you and when did you get ‘into’ surround sound?

I went to my first expo in the early 90s with a demo of a simple (expensive ) DPL system watching The Shadow … and it really was great. I got a nice Yamaha DPL amp and NICAM stereo VCR after that for surround sound.

Dolby Pro Logic and the others (II / IIx / IIz) are obviously inferior to digital discrete - but they aren’t bad at all. You can read the reviews yourself if you haven’t used it.

It’s even called a matrix SURROUND format and has speakers SURROUNDING the user. It IS surround sound and could pretty much decode from almost any stereo source.

To say it’s not surround because it never met your standards is silly and rather inaccurate.

 

[Lupus]

Dolby is correct, pro logic is surround. The 4 channel signal is sent across the 2 coaxial cables and decoded into separate channels. Each level of pro logic improved the separation, the levels, noise reduction and cross dialog.
Stereo across 5 speakers would literally just be replicating the front channels.

 

[SauRoNZA]

How old are you and when did you get ‘into’ surround sound?

I went to my first expo in the early 90s with a demo of a simple (expensive ) DPL system watching The Shadow … and it really was great. I got a nice Yamaha DPL amp and NICAM stereo VCR after that for surround sound.

Dolby Pro Logic and the others (II / IIx / IIz) are obviously inferior to digital discrete - but they aren’t bad at all. You can read the reviews yourself if you haven’t used it.

It’s even called a matrix SURROUND format and has speakers SURROUNDING the user. It IS surround sound and could pretty much decode from almost any stereo source.

To say it’s not surround because it never met your standards is silly and rather inaccurate.

I only considered something truly surround when we got centre channel and subwoofer separation and it was all digital.

Before that good old stereo was always far superior with better separation and sound stage and until the recent advent of Spatial Audio has remained true for all things music.

Only time Pro Logic II was in my life was during the PS2 era and then I’d already gone Dolby Digital so there was no point in using it.

Quadrophonic surround has never felt quite right and hence why I disregard it.

My old man was an audiophile of note in his younger years but with a focus of music rather than home cinema, but I still remember him pre-ordering a CD player in the 80’s and waiting weeks for the first ones to arrive in SA.

Also I was coming to the party and admitting I was wrong, but you have only one mode which is seemingly poeslik, so I don’t know why I bothered to engage.

 

[SauRoNZA]

Dolby is correct, pro logic is surround. The 4 channel signal is sent across the 2 coaxial cables and decoded into separate channels. Each level of pro logic improved the separation, the levels, noise reduction and cross dialog.
Stereo across 5 speakers would literally just be replicating the front channels.

I already admitted as much.

I don’t consider it a technology worth bothering with though.

Do it properly or stick to stereo.

 

[Lupus]

I already admitted as much.

I don’t consider it a technology worth bothering with though.

Do it properly or stick to stereo.

Sure it's old tech, but if the system is only DPL or DPL 2 use that. The only issue would be lfe

 

[Dolby]

With only one of either the red or white so it becomes a mono digital coax connection.

Could you explain this a bit further?

So L or R are analogue signals - but you’re saying that if I plug a cable into one of them, it switches to digital? And it’s mono digital and not stereo digital? So mono binary as opposed to stereo binary?

 

[SauRoNZA]

Could you explain this a bit further?

So L or R are analogue signals - but you’re saying that if I plug a cable into one of them, it switches to digital? And it’s mono digital and not stereo digital? So mono binary as opposed to stereo binary?

No of course not.

You need to plug the same cable into a Coaxial connection which is digital.

And coaxial is a simple mono cable carrying a digital stream. It’s not binary but digital multichannel.

It’s no different to an optical connection in nature, the transmission mechanism is just different.

Is a USB cable digital or analog?

 

[SauRoNZA]

“A coaxial digital connection uses a single RCA connector, usually orange or black. Unlike stereo analog audio, which requires two cables for stereo, coaxial only needs one to transmit digital signals.”

Digital Coaxial Cables Demystified: When and Why to Opt for this Audio Connection

What is a coaxial audio cable, and when do you need one? Make sure you use the correct connection type in this guide to coaxial digital audio.

www.the-home-cinema-guide.com

 

[chrisc]

If you could post a labelled drawing of the connections on each piece of equipment, I will suggest a workable solution

I have been installing and commissioning systems like this for many years

You will get more meaningful answers by posting your problems on AVForums South Africa

 

[Dolby]

That’s still a stereo source. Just bullshitted over 5 speakers.

but I call it duplicated stereo

but it’s just stereo bullshitted across 5 speakers and usually turns the centre channel to mud which would explain why he can’t hear anyth8ng.

So, you think ths same speakers are playing the same duplicated stereo?

and it hardly ever had any traction in the wild.

You feel Dolby Pro Logic didn't do well?

I can't think of a single surround amp that didn't have Dolby Pro Logic or a single rival surround format? Every single surround amp had it ... consoles had it ... even my car had it! I'd guess 100 milllions of hardware devices actually

 

[Dolby]

No special impedance or anything required.

Digital Coaxial Cables Demystified: When and Why to Opt for this Audio Connection

What is a coaxial audio cable, and when do you need one? Make sure you use the correct connection type in this guide to coaxial digital audio.

www.the-home-cinema-guide.com

... while coaxial uses more robust 75-ohm coaxial cables
... For proper signal transfer, it should have an impedance of 75 ohms.
... It is recommended to use a 75-ohm coaxial cable to transmit digital transmissions because this will help avoid errors in the signal.
... so a proper 75-ohm digital cable is recommended
... You need to buy a 75-ohm RCA coaxial digital audio cable like the one below
... It has a male RCA connector at each end, a coaxial build and a 75-ohm impedance rating for the cable and connector
... use a dedicated 75-ohm coaxial digital audio cable

 

[Dolby]

And coaxial is a simple mono cable carrying a digital stream. It’s not binary but digital multichannel.

What else is digital if not binary ?
In other words, how else is information transported?

... At its most simplistic, data sent over a cable is converted into binary code – a collection of 1s and 0s.
... analog cables work by transferring electrical audio signals , while digital cables work by transferring digital binary information.
... Unlike traditional analog audio signals, either “on” or “off,” digital audio signals are sent in binary format, making them immune to noise and interference.

 

[Dolby]

I only considered something truly surround when we got centre channel and subwoofer separation and it was all digital

Ah - so you determine what is surround?

Before that good old stereo was always far superior with better separation and sound stage and until the recent advent of Spatial Audio has remained true for all things music.

Bold claim .

Did you use multi channel SACD or DVD-A yourself?

I'm almost certain my multichannel SACDs sounded better - with better seperation and sound stage - than your stereo?

It's tough to call without having all the info in front of you and owning/trying all the formats yourself. Agreed ?

Only time Pro Logic II was in my life was during the PS2 era and then I’d already gone Dolby Digital so there was no point in using it.

That's quite early - what amplifier & source did you use ?

Quadrophonic surround has never felt quite right and hence why I disregard it.

That's really really old ... unsure why you're bringing it up in this context .

My old man was an audiophile of note in his younger years but with a focus of music rather than home cinema,

Yea - also started in stereo. You should ask him what equipment he had ?

Also I was coming to the party and admitting I was wrong, but you have only one mode which is seemingly poeslik, so I don’t know why I bothered to engage.

You really hate being wrong and/or corrected?
In general, or by me in particular?

On another note - did that Apple Music lossless irritate you to such an extent that you asked to close it?
Or did the idea of the thread just piss people off because they realised I had a point?

 

[SauRoNZA]

So, you think ths same speakers are playing the same duplicated stereo?

In the case where the source was encoded in DPL no, but there was so little of it that most of the time it’s just plain stereo algorithmed onto however many speakers with no proper LFE separation and centre channels just being mud.

You feel Dolby Pro Logic didn't do well?

I can't think of a single surround amp that didn't have Dolby Pro Logic or a single rival surround format? Every single surround amp had it ... consoles had it ... even my car had it! I'd guess 100 milllions of hardware devices actually

All the hardware supported it, what I meant was there wasn’t much support for it from sources. It wasn’t used for broadcast and DVD’s and such didn’t really use it either.

PS2 had it on most games but also supported Dolby Digital and if you had that you could just ignore DPL.

It was more of a transition tech for systems stuck in analog times. Anyone who had gone digital had better technologies like Dolby Digital or DTS to use instead.

 

[SauRoNZA]

... while coaxial uses more robust 75-ohm coaxial cables
... For proper signal transfer, it should have an impedance of 75 ohms.
... It is recommended to use a 75-ohm coaxial cable to transmit digital transmissions because this will help avoid errors in the signal.
... so a proper 75-ohm digital cable is recommended
... You need to buy a 75-ohm RCA coaxial digital audio cable like the one below
... It has a male RCA connector at each end, a coaxial build and a 75-ohm impedance rating for the cable and connector
... use a dedicated 75-ohm coaxial digital audio cable

Note the word “recommended”.

It’s a digital signal and it either works or it doesn’t and the impedance will almost certainly only come into play on longer cable runs.

Fact is most any cable with the RCA connector will work just fine.

 

[SauRoNZA]

What else is digital if not binary ?
In other words, how else is information transported?

... At its most simplistic, data sent over a cable is converted into binary code – a collection of 1s and 0s.
... analog cables work by transferring electrical audio signals , while digital cables work by transferring digital binary information.
... Unlike traditional analog audio signals, either “on” or “off,” digital audio signals are sent in binary format, making them immune to noise and interference.

Sorry you are correct.

I read that in terms of you meaning stereo being binary as in two channels, not the actual data transmission.

So yes it’s a binary stream inside a mono non-binary single channel.