Help with inverter battery sizing

Maybe this explanation below will help.

A. A simple diagram:

POWER.png

I assume now we all agree that a UPS is made up of two basic components that can be purchased as a unit called a UPS.
But we can achieve the same functionality if we were to use an inverter and a separate battery. (This is the scenario applicable to outdoor people who install inverters in the vehicles driven by the vehicle battery to supply AC power).

And it does not matter what the charging side looks like . It could be the vehicle alternator, or a Solar panel or an AC input to the inverter. Sure there are power management issues and control circuitry requirements that are different in these scenarios but that is NOT what OPs question is about.

Everything to the right of line A or B is the "load". So when looking at the battery, the load must include the inverter and the load that is to be provided with power.

B. The formulas and the units used:

Now to the circles on the right. Everyone remember these very basic formulas about electricity?

Volts X Amps = Resistance in Ohms, and Volts x Amps = Watts ( in DC circuits) and VA (in AC circuits) and to convert AC VA to Watts, the formula is V x A x p where p is the power factor which is a value between 0 and 1.

So now to convert into power over time, one multiples both sides of the equation by time.

V x A x Time (in hours) = VA-hr or W-hr

C. The battery:

Firstly, one has to careful not confuse things with batteries and ensure what you put on paper is not open to interpretation.
Two batteries placed in series is NOT the same as two batteries in parallel. In this example the numbers are unfortunate because those of you quoting the formulas for batteries in parallel get the same answers and therefore leave a nagging feeling that there is not something quite right here.
Two 12 Volt batteries in series = a total of 24 Volts, which is the correct value to plug into whatever formula you want to use.

Next, Yes there is an efficiency issue about any electrical device, which will result in the full capacity of the battery NOT being available ( OR, as I have seen many times, a battery able to deliver more than its rated capacity! i.e. better than 100% efficient.)

So in this example we can say the capacity in watts of the 24 volt battery is 24 Volts x 102 Amps = 2 448 w,

OR,
we can quote it in w-hr as 24 Volts x 102 A-hr = 2 448 W-hr.

THEN we can introduce an efficiency factor if we want to by reducing the available power by a factor. (Some have suggested 0.85 others have proposed to use 100 A-hr as an a reference value, whatever floats your boat).

Then one has to decide on the level of discharge. A simple (and by no means the only way) is simply cut the capacity by half for a 50% discharge. So the capacity is now

1224 w OR 1224 w-hr.

Now to determine the standby time (at point A) will be Time in hours = Capacity of the battery in A-hr x Volts /load, which must include the load plus the inverter load.

So assume that the load is 70 watts and the inverter uses 50w just to work, the load will be 120 w.

That means the standby time at the battery for a 50% discharge will be (102 x 24)0.5 /120 = 10.2 hours.

D: Refine the calculations:

To refine the calculations some more, one wants to calculate the load more accurately and also calculate the efficiency of the inverter.
 

Attachments

  • POWER.png
    POWER.png
    3.6 KB · Views: 278
Last edited:
Maybe this explanation below will help.

A. A simple diagram:

View attachment 419914

I assume now we all agree that a UPS is made up of two basic components that can be purchased as a unit called a UPS.
But we can achieve the same functionality if we were to use an inverter and a separate battery. (This is the scenario applicable to outdoor people who install inverters in the vehicles driven by the vehicle battery to supply AC power).

And it does not matter what the charging side looks like . It could be the vehicle alternator, or a Solar panel or an AC input to the inverter. Sure there are power management issues and control circuitry requirements that are different in these scenarios but that is NOT what OPs question is about.

Everything to the right of line A or B is the "load". So when looking at the battery, the load must include the inverter and the load that is to be provided with power.

So what you're saying is that you enjoy butchering English to further your agenda.

OP's question was simple, but it did not involve a UPS, so any talk of UPSs is just going to expose you as a dullard.
 
What is your answer then?

This is not rocket science:

Battery capacity = 2 x 102Ah x 12V = 2448Wh
Load = 1.669kWh/24h = 69.5W
Duration = 2448Wh / 69.5W = 35h to 100% depth of discharge, or 17 hours to 50%. Now since this isn't too far from the 20 hour battery rating specification, I'm not making any adjustments for that, but you should know that an inverter operating at 3.5% load isn't going to be efficient at all - so a big adjustment is needed there.
 
Last edited:
So what you're saying is that you enjoy butchering English to further your agenda.

OP's question was simple, but it did not involve a UPS, so any talk of UPSs is just going to expose you as a dullard.

Strange that YOU are the one who introduced the concept of a UPS! The original query was strictly about batteries and inverters!
 
Strange that YOU are the one who introduced the concept of a UPS! The original query was strictly about batteries and inverters!

No, I mentioned them in post #11, go look at post #10 to see who introduced them. If you can't read, well then you're just **** outa luck.

Did you only buy your mirror just now ?

So witty. Your mother must be proud.
 
Is everybody here stressed today? Or are we just having a normal mybb bitch fight?
 
Hi mister.

What are you running? 1.7Kw/h over a 24h period is very little...

Btw the moment I see 102 or 105Ah batteries I cringe. From my experience those Deltec/Royal/etc batteries are crap. Rather save up and get some high end gel or lead crystal batteries. I had some Northstars/Omnipowers and still have some Betta batteries that were/are good. For some new projects I plan to use Hoppecke VR L/VR M, that seems to have an even longer lifespan.
 
Hi mister.

What are you running? 1.7Kw/h over a 24h period is very little...

Btw the moment I see 102 or 105Ah batteries I cringe. From my experience those Deltec/Royal/etc batteries are crap. Rather save up and get some high end gel or lead crystal batteries. I had some Northstars/Omnipowers and still have some Betta batteries that were/are good. For some new projects I plan to use Hoppecke VR L/VR M, that seems to have an even longer lifespan.


Yes we can certainly debate the choice of batteries, but at this stage OP is only requesting clarity on the theory behind all of this.
I suspect he has been to Builders hardware and seen the inverter battery solution on offer there from a certain supplier of this sort of "stuff' to the ordinary oke in the street.
 
Hi mister.

What are you running? 1.7Kw/h over a 24h period is very little...

Btw the moment I see 102 or 105Ah batteries I cringe. From my experience those Deltec/Royal/etc batteries are crap. Rather save up and get some high end gel or lead crystal batteries. I had some Northstars/Omnipowers and still have some Betta batteries that were/are good. For some new projects I plan to use Hoppecke VR L/VR M, that seems to have an even longer lifespan.

the 1.7Kwh over 24 hours is:

1) 1 X Intel NUC Core i3
2) 1 X 22" LED monitor
3) 1 X Telephone
4) 1 X Network Switch
5) 1 X CC Terminal
6) 1 X Laser Printer (probably 20 prints a day)

I'm just trying to understand how to do the calculations before I start seeing what else I can add onto the inverter such as LED tube lights and some other equipment.

I've calculated another 2215 watt hours usage of other equipment. This would be over an 8 hour day so basically another 276 watts ontop of the average 70 watts listed above.
 
Last edited:
Yes we can certainly debate the choice of batteries, but at this stage OP is only requesting clarity on the theory behind all of this. I suspect he has been to Builders hardware and seen the inverter battery solution on offer there from a certain supplier of this sort of "stuff' to the ordinary oke in the street.

Yep, trying to understand the theory so I know what to buy. Feel free to chime in on any recommended inverter brands! It will have to be pure sine for the laser printer and some other sensitive equipment.
 
Yep, trying to understand the theory so I know what to buy. Feel free to chime in on any recommended inverter brands! It will have to be pure sine for the laser printer and some other sensitive equipment.

Where you located bud ?
 
This is not rocket science:

Battery capacity = 2 x 102Ah x 12V = 2448Wh
Load = 1.669kWh/24h = 69.5W
Duration = 2448Wh / 69.5W = 35h to 100% depth of discharge, or 17 hours to 50%. Now since this isn't too far from the 20 hour battery rating specification, I'm not making any adjustments for that, but you should know that an inverter operating at 3.5% load isn't going to be efficient at all - so a big adjustment is needed there.

Again OP's system is 24V not 12V.
 
Top
Sign up to the MyBroadband newsletter
X