How to reverse ATM fraud?

[Dovi]

My family have a friend (ex-South African) staying with us from Kuwait at the moment. On Sunday she went to the local Standard Bank ATM situated on Barry Hertzhog Avenue in Emmarentia, and attempted to draw cash from her Gulf Bank Account. When she first attempted to draw, a man behind her kept shoving her aside, pushing buttons on the machine claiming that he was trying to help her. She shoved back, grabbing her card informing him that she didn't need any help. She waited until another woman used the ATM, and then proceeded to draw from the account herself, assuming it to be safe now that the man was gone.

Last night, 21st of September, she attempted to draw money elsewhere, and had no success with the ATM. She's now checked her accounts online, and seen that the identical amount she drew on Sunday has been repeatedly drawn from an ATM, to the point that her account has been emptied, totally an equivalent of R30 000.

She's now phoned First Natinional Bank, as according to her online statement the money was all drawn from an FNB ATM account. She phoned FNB, and was literally told "Well, this is South Africa", and that there is nothing they can do about it. We're unsure of the steps she can take, as FNB have made it quite clear it's not their problem. She leaves for Kuwait again on Thursday, and unfortunately there's currently a week long public holiday in Kuwait and she's unable to deal with her bank there until she returns.

This woman is one of the world's leading experts on diabetes, and is now more set then ever on not returning to South Africa.

 

[psichron]

You need a card and PIN to draw money from an ATM. Obviously the guy watched her enter her PIN and stole her card.

It's not the bank's responsibility to give her her money back if she was the victim of theft. This was not fraud. She should have freezed her account immediately, or changed her PIN and also file a police report. Yes this is South Africa. Here you just need to be a little more vigilant and have a little more common sense to survive, but it's not a savage place.

 

[The_Unbeliever]

Sorry to hear what happened.

Makes one and

From now on I will inform friends and family (from overseas) that they be extra vigilant at ATM's. And tell them what to do in case of emergencies.

Better be safe than sorry.

 

[The_Unbeliever]

BTW - ATM withdrawals cannot be reversed, only certain bank transactions, and only when reported early enough.

 

[davemc]

The maximum daily limit at an ATM is what? R2000?
So, 30000 / 2000 = 15.

15 days of continuously drawing from exactly the same ATM R2000 and no alarm bells went off at the bank?
That is flipping pathetic service. Utterly pathetic.
The banks are always flaunting their "security measures" that cost us a fortune in service charges, but when it comes down to the crunch, it's a matter of ... no, sorry, your fault, you pay up.

 

[psichron]

davemc read the post again. The posters tells us this happened Sunday (20 Sept) and she checked her balance last night (21 Sept) so this happened over two days. The incident happened at a standard bank ATM, but her money was drawn from an FNB ATM.

She is not even a customer of either of those two banks, so why should they care about her account? Also, international ATM limits is often much higher than local ATM limits or sometimes nonexistent.

 

[Stokstert]

With reference to this thread:We had a rude awakening

The daily limit on my wife's account was R1000 and these guys got away with R7500. We never had SMS confirmation on our accounts, but fortunately requested it about a week before the scam happened, otherwise they would have cleaned out that account.

According to ABSA these guys clone more than one card and get away with more than the daily limit. How precisely it works I don't know.

 

[The_Unbeliever]

With reference to this thread:We had a rude awakening

The daily limit on my wife's account was R1000 and these guys got away with R7500. We never had SMS confirmation on our accounts, but fortunately requested it about a week before the scam happened, otherwise they would have cleaned out that account.

According to ABSA these guys clone more than one card and get away with more than the daily limit. How precisely it works I don't know.

But then it's the bank's fault for allowing more than the daily limit!

FFS! R1000 daily limit MUST BE the daily limit!!!

 

[xrapidx]

But then it's the bank's fault for allowing more than the daily limit!

FFS! R1000 daily limit MUST BE the daily limit!!!

The daily limit only applies to our banks - I don't think it applies to international account holders.

 

[Keeper]

a man behind her kept shoving her aside, pushing buttons on the machine claiming that he was trying to help her.

should of known he's trying something, and reported him.

 

[psichron]

We always read about these amazing magical criminals that can withdraw money from your account simply by being close to you at some stage. This is all a bunch of bullcrap. People lie about what happened because they are embarrassed about their situation. The truth is much simpler:
1. The thief got a hold of your card and either cloned the magstrip
(easy) or still has it.
2. The thief got hold of your PIN by watching you enter it (or you actually gave it to him! Like what happened to some US tourists a while back.)
3. You knew something suspicious happened and failed to report it/stop your account.

If the daily ATM limit was really bypassed, then the bank has to answer for it. If a bank employee temporarily changed it, then it can be traced to that employee.

Anything else, like fraud where a bank/restaurant/supermark employee is involved WILL have a paper trail that can be followed back to the person committing the crime, so it's high risk to do that and unlikely.

 

[The_Unbeliever]

A long while ago this sort of thing almost happened to myself. I kept an eye on my card, and told the guy to fsck off. When he didn't, I just went to another bank.

Was lucky so far.

Maybe you can safeguard yourself by opening another account, this time a debit card account, and put enough money in there for your monthly groceries, and use that in public. When the card gets stolen, at least they won't steal all your money.

 

[davemc]

I apologise for missing the dates in the opening post.

I really thought that the daily limit applied at an ATM level though.

 

[xrapidx]

I apologise for missing the dates in the opening post.

I really thought that the daily limit applied at an ATM level though.

I know I can draw R3,000 - did it once, don't recommend it, all the notes couldn't come out of the machine properly and ended up getting stuck - took my about 10min to get them out as the door thingy kept trying to close.

 

[guest2013-1]

You guys have it wrong....

She needs to contact her bank back in Kuwait, tell them someone stole her ATM card and made withdrawels. From there on they will handle it.

Hellloooooooo? Ever had your purse stolen (girls) or wallet (guys) and had to "cancel" the cards?? The reason why you get your money back even after your cards have been stolen and money have been deducted off the account (with ATM withdrawels as well) is simple. It's insured, you made a claim it's been stolen.

And this is what they do they:

*gasp* ... wait for it... yes! They check the security tapes of that ATM.

"Oh look, it's a fat assed nigerian black guy, but this is a white woman's card"

ah duuuuhhhhhr

 

[Dovi]

You need a card and PIN to draw money from an ATM. Obviously the guy watched her enter her PIN and stole her card.

It's not the bank's responsibility to give her her money back if she was the victim of theft. This was not fraud. She should have freezed her account immediately, or changed her PIN and also file a police report. Yes this is South Africa. Here you just need to be a little more vigilant and have a little more common sense to survive, but it's not a savage place.

Thanks for the highly inaccurate assumptions there. Firstly, it is possible to draw from the ATM without the original card. According to the FNB fraud line, fraudsters have devices they install into the ATMs which pick up all the info on the card as well as the PIN when entered, removing the need for them to steal the card. Secondly, as I said in my post, she tried drawing again the next day, meaning she obviously still had the card on her person.

Daily withdrawal limits are imposed by the bank the account is held with. As we were informed by the Gulf Bank when she called them, fraud is more of a western problem. However, we were told that the Gulf Bank had picked up on the withdrawals and have frozen her account and are in the process of trying to reverse them. They'd tried calling her yesterday but she's been using a South African number while she's here.

should of known he's trying something, and reported him.

She assumed once the second woman had used the ATM that it was safe to use. FNB told us that she may have been part of the act, and that often they hear of fraudsters working in pairs like that. Plus she had her suspicions, otherwise she wouldn't have pulled her card out the way she did when he tried interfering. But once he'd left she assumed it would be alright.

 

[psichron]

It seems more likely that she had two cards and the guy stole one, than if he made a copy of her card without her seeing it. How is that a "highly inaccurate" assumption?

 

[Dovi]

It seems more likely that she had two cards and the guy stole one, than if he made a copy of her card without her seeing it. How is that a "highly inaccurate" assumption?

An example of an ATM skimmer: http://www.hoax-slayer.com/atm-skimming.html

If I'm not mistaken, multiple ATM cards usually have different PIN numbers. Besides, she only has one ATM card, so that didn't happen.

 

[psichron]

All ATM cards can have their pins changed by the user. Most often people will have the same pin for all their cards. If they guy had a skimmer, why did he interfere with her transaction and push buttons at all?

 

[Dovi]

It's beyond me as to why he interfered. Based on the fact that all the transactions which occurred after she drew were of the same amount that she chose to draw initially, I would assume it had something to do with trying to ensure she drew a high amount. Why're you going out of your way to make it seem like it was her fault, and not a well thought out plan? It's not exactly uncommon to hear of people having funds removed as a result of ATM fraud due to no fault of their own.