How to train a graduate?

[noxibox]

This is a common problem with college and even university graduates, they have a lot of theoretical knowledge in the back of their heads but when it comes to coding they lack experience with all the small problems that seniors are used to and they can’t even begin to see how to put this knowledge to practical use.

At any decent university you'd never be able to do any of the practical assignments if you can't take a problem, come up with a solution and convert it into code. The good universities also generally leave most of the language learning up to the student. The only way to get passing marks for practical assignments without the ability to do these things would be to leech off someone else all the way through. When I was university they gave us a couple of introductory lectures on C, a cheat sheet of basic Unix commands and then pointed to a shelf full of manuals and said "There are reference manuals for the libraries and operating system. Whatever you need to know is in there or in the man pages." There was also no world wide web, just usenet.

What you don't get at university usually, unless you do a fourth year, is an opportunity to work on a fairly hefty task that will take months to complete.

We had a fairly long discussion (on MyBB) on this the other day, the outcome being that a B.Sc. is of more value than a diploma.

My experience is that Technikon graduates come out trained where university graduates come out having learned to think and solve problems.

 

[Voicy]

You're right, but I want to give him a chance. Maybe I am too nice...
I will be pi$$ed however if I train him and then he duck once he is more skilled. That is a reality though.

What if you don't train him and he never leaves? That's equally horrifying.

Just wait for the day when you realise that he is at the level where you want him to be, and then he hits you with a resignation letter.

The working world has changed. Our parents worked for companies for 30yrs of loyal services, only to be booted out with a severance package and a laughable pension. Everyone develops and moves on now. That's how the game works. It is now up to the companies to ensure staff loyalty.

Small companies spend money training staff who leave when suitably qualified, why? Because suitably qualified staff get paid their worth. I was getting paid absolute peanuts even as a registered professional. A year after I left the company they closed down.

 

[CheekyC]

What if you don't train him and he never leaves? That's equally horrifying.

Precisely. That is why i opted for a limited duration contract

The working world has changed. Our parents worked for companies for 30yrs of loyal services, only to be booted out with a severance package and a laughable pension. Everyone develops and moves on now. That's how the game works. It is now up to the companies to ensure staff loyalty.

Small companies spend money training staff who leave when suitably qualified, why? Because suitably qualified staff get paid their worth. I was getting paid absolute peanuts even as a registered professional. A year after I left the company they closed down.

So in effect, a small company should never invest and train someone. Small companies are never going to afford the higher salaries a large company will. So there is no loyalty from employees that would otherwise not have found a job? No loyalty to give back something to the small company that trained them? Just leeching on the back of a sucker to get experience. Good to know. So to all the young grads that find themselves in the Catch-22 where they need experience to find a job, but need a job to get experience, FARK YOU ALL...?

 

[Voicy]

Precisely. That is why i opted for a limited duration contract



So in effect, a small company should never invest and train someone. Small companies are never going to afford the higher salaries a large company will. So there is no loyalty from employees that would otherwise not have found a job? No loyalty to give back something to the small company that trained them? Just leeching on the back of a sucker to get experience. Good to know. So to all the young grads that find themselves in the Catch-22 where they need experience to find a job, but need a job to get experience, FARK YOU ALL...?

Nope, loyalty isn't bought. I worked for a 5man operation for 6yrs, only to be told I have to move to Jhb (same salary) or get retrenched. After carrying the company as the "2nd in charge" despite there being other puppet directors employed. I worked 120hrs overtime in 1 month (7am-11pm/1am every day incl weekends) without getting paid overtime, without complaining because I knew it had to be done for the company to stay afloat. How did I get repaid? I got to look after everything while the boss took his wife on an overseas holiday & bought her a new car. Yep.

I don't expect small companies to match corporations with pay, but at least pay their worth. I got paid less than what the miners are striking for while taking on the responsibilities of a design engineer on major projects...not exactly a nice balance.

Yes, I learnt a lot through them over the years, but I paid my dues and in the end all I got was big F-you. The nice part was seeing them suffer by paying full rates for an IT company to fix their **** after I left. They didn't realise I fixed half the stuff before they even realised it broke.

So make of that what you will.

 

[cguy]

Nope, loyalty isn't bought. I worked for a 5man operation for 6yrs, only to be told I have to move to Jhb (same salary) or get retrenched. After carrying the company as the "2nd in charge" despite there being other puppet directors employed. I worked 120hrs overtime in 1 month (7am-11pm/1am every day incl weekends) without getting paid overtime, without complaining because I knew it had to be done for the company to stay afloat. How did I get repaid? I got to look after everything while the boss took his wife on an overseas holiday & bought her a new car. Yep.

I don't expect small companies to match corporations with pay, but at least pay their worth. I got paid less than what the miners are striking for while taking on the responsibilities of a design engineer on major projects...not exactly a nice balance.

Yes, I learnt a lot through them over the years, but I paid my dues and in the end all I got was big F-you. The nice part was seeing them suffer by paying full rates for an IT company to fix their **** after I left. They didn't realise I fixed half the stuff before they even realised it broke.

So make of that what you will.

It sounds as though you're conflating crap companies with small companies. The best indicator is usually net income (before salaries) pet capita, rather than just size when it comes to how well a company is likely to pay.

 

[mike6870]

You're right, but I want to give him a chance. Maybe I am too nice...
I will be pi$$ed however if I train him and then he duck once he is more skilled. That is a reality though.

Just give him a shiny new jag/maserati, 49% shares ( no equity input ) & you will be free to hire someone competent & won't have to worry about him leaving. Until something better comes along of course, after all, he is a graduate.

 

[CheekyC]

Nope, loyalty isn't bought. I worked for a 5man operation for 6yrs, only to be told I have to move to Jhb (same salary) or get retrenched. After carrying the company as the "2nd in charge" despite there being other puppet directors employed. I worked 120hrs overtime in 1 month (7am-11pm/1am every day incl weekends) without getting paid overtime, without complaining because I knew it had to be done for the company to stay afloat. How did I get repaid? I got to look after everything while the boss took his wife on an overseas holiday & bought her a new car. Yep.

I don't expect small companies to match corporations with pay, but at least pay their worth. I got paid less than what the miners are striking for while taking on the responsibilities of a design engineer on major projects...not exactly a nice balance.

Yes, I learnt a lot through them over the years, but I paid my dues and in the end all I got was big F-you. The nice part was seeing them suffer by paying full rates for an IT company to fix their **** after I left. They didn't realise I fixed half the stuff before they even realised it broke.

So make of that what you will.

Well you sound like you have the kind of attitude that i appreciate. But you might be 1 in a million so to speak.

Understandibly some ppl move for money. My choice would be that an employee values the gain in experience more/as much as the financial reward. The stuff we do is unique in the world and the satisfaction of being involved in that and putting these systems into the market is quite rewarding. I am in no way advocating underpaying someone, but there is more to a job than just money. I am a tech junkie and would love my (fellow) employees to be as passionate about it as i am. So i am giving this guy a chance and hope it does not bite me. I am paying him far more than he is worth at the moment. At least that is how i feel.

 

[aigle2am]

@CheekyC, I really wish I had a manager like you when I start my first job. I completely understand how you feel given the circumstances. I am a junior dev who had a pretty tough introduction to the working world as I had virtually no support and was forced to learn things the hard way and make mistakes that were preventable.

I just think that sometimes being as raw graduate, one might be either too afraid to make a mistake or just need a push in the right direction. Unfortunately it takes time. I do not think 3 months is enough as he might be just a late bloomer. 6 months is more reasonable in my view. Give him time to work towards improving himself without feeling under pressure to perform.

 

[CheekyC]

@CheekyC, I really wish I had a manager like you when I start my first job. I completely understand how you feel given the circumstances. I am a junior dev who had a pretty tough introduction to the working world as I had virtually no support and was forced to learn things the hard way and make mistakes that were preventable.

I just think that sometimes being as raw graduate, one might be either too afraid to make a mistake or just need a push in the right direction. Unfortunately it takes time. I do not think 3 months is enough as he might be just a late bloomer. 6 months is more reasonable in my view. Give him time to work towards improving himself without feeling under pressure to perform.

Well thanks..
I work very closely with this guy guide him along the way. He has lots to learn. The traditional training that you get at the learning institutions are not representative of a real dev environment. Hooking a small app up to a db like most tutorials tell you is not how it works in a big system. So the first job I gave him was to get him to write an interface to an accounting system. Which in itself is something that most junior devs will battle with given their practical background. But then adding design patterns and best practices on top of that is a steep curve. But that is the road you have to take.

Look, after the 3 months I will evaluate his progress from where he is now. Not necessarily the level. Progresss and commitment is a far better indicator of potential. So whether a late bloomer or not, I would have an indication...

 

[Fuma]

The stuff we do is unique in the world and the satisfaction of being involved

I'm curious as what stuff you do.

 

[cerebus]

The salary level you're bringing him in at seems quite high. I'm not a coder but there's a pretty big gulf in any profession between fresh graduate and capable worker, and companies mitigate against that with internships and entry level salaries. You're not this guy's mentor. There are companies who will take on fresh graduates and have programs in place to train them with benchmarks and proper KPI's; and sandbox them from the higher-level stuff in a way that smaller companies just can't do.

 

[adam1234]

wish my boss was like you when i started, even till today, some form of guidance will be appreciated from the guy!

give him some examples of what you want him to do then tell him to do it and as he progresses make it a bit more complex.

 

[systemofpurplelimpminion]

Yes he can google .NET questions. Hell I even do that myself from time to time.

But the issue is, from problem domain to object domian & code. You cant google that. E.g. given a simple config type class with simple properties, how would you persist that. Not using app.config etc. He battles with that.

The simplest solution is to serialize to XML using built in .NET and then write to file.

Through experience (mostly making mistakes though)... a graduate colleague once jested that he wished he could buy and instance experience pill somewhere..

And now he's not half bad

 

[CheekyC]

The salary level you're bringing him in at seems quite high. I'm not a coder but there's a pretty big gulf in any profession between fresh graduate and capable worker, and companies mitigate against that with internships and entry level salaries. You're not this guy's mentor. There are companies who will take on fresh graduates and have programs in place to train them with benchmarks and proper KPI's; and sandbox them from the higher-level stuff in a way that smaller companies just can't do.

True... I realise that. In my technical assessment I found he was quite lacking but decided to give him a change. I have limited it to 3 month contract so will see

 

[Mouse]

True... I realise that. In my technical assessment I found he was quite lacking but decided to give him a change. I have limited it to 3 month contract so will see

You remind me of the boss I had when I started working as a graduate. I still regard him as the best boss I've ever had.
I was on a 6 month contract to prove myself, along with other graduates in a company of about 500 people at the time,
and was made permanent within 3 months and then sent to work for this guy.

I could have easily left for more money, but ended up staying for over 4 years because I liked the team I was in, liked the work I was doing, especially liked learning as much as I did from the team I was in. Company culture was also awesome.

 

[RezaKhan]

What?

Anyway, monitor him and cut out social sites and cellphone use and stuff that might derail him. You need to hit him hard with the facts that if he doesn't perform then he won't have a future anywhere. This is the mind game part of management. This will make him come to reality and think of his situation, this will make him take his work home and force him to work due to the pressure that you are giving him.

You going to have to talk to this kid, also, on your side, don't leave him hanging. Show him the way forward, some people just need that push.

So now that you showed him how to refactor and all that, tell him to explain what you just did on the board (after you erased it) and how he can break it down. With that said, have patience.

What Universities lack is what Technikons' have. In-service and a better understanding of the working world. Varsities focus mainly on algorithms and complexity or O(log n) stuff, can't remember clearly...You need to engage this guy in a way that he comes out of that shell. And believe me, once he is out of that shell and gets his priorities straight...he will benefit your company more than what you thought.

I also think that people with Bsc. are bred for architect, integration, Systems Analyst roles (of course it requires some dev exp. but...). What do you guys think?

Most companies discriminate against people with BTech IT (technikon) degrees in my opinion as a new grad. Well probably when it comes to no experience. They would rather hire somebody with a bsc. Comp science. I've seen this on a number of job adverts which actually state NO BTECH.

 

[cguy]

What Universities lack is what Technikons' have. In-service and a better understanding of the working world. Varsities focus mainly on algorithms and complexity or O(log n) stuff, can't remember clearly...

A bit of a necro, but this "working world" vs. "algorithms and complexity" comparison seems to pop up a lot. This is really just a tools distinction - "algorithms and complexity" are very much part of my working world, and those of many others.

Most companies discriminate against people with BTech IT (technikon) degrees in my opinion as a new grad. Well probably when it comes to no experience. They would rather hire somebody with a bsc. Comp science. I've seen this on a number of job adverts which actually state NO BTECH.

I can't say that I've seen a "NO BTECH" job before, so I don't think that this is actually that prevalent. It seems like a silly limitation to me - the job description should be enough for the candidate to decide if it's a possible match. Perhaps if the position is heavily CS like, a BSc may be "required" or "preferred", and from what I've seen, usually consideration is given to a B.Tech. holder assuming their skill set (as given in the candidate's CV) actually matches the job description.

 

[RezaKhan]

A bit of a necro, but this "working world" vs. "algorithms and complexity" comparison seems to pop up a lot. This is really just a tools distinction - "algorithms and complexity" are very much part of my working world, and those of many others.


I can't say that I've seen a "NO BTECH" job before, so I don't think that this is actually that prevalent. It seems like a silly limitation to me - the job description should be enough for the candidate to decide if it's a possible match. Perhaps if the position is heavily CS like, a BSc may be "required" or "preferred", and from what I've seen, usually consideration is given to a B.Tech. holder assuming their skill set (as given in the candidate's CV) actually matches the job description.

Have a look at this, although not a junior role, it literally states no BTECH.
http://www.indeed.co.za/m/viewjob?jk=7d2aaf37d6aa9199
"Degree from a reputable South African University, No BTECH or Diploma"

 

[cguy]

Have a look at this, although not a junior role, it literally states no BTECH.
http://www.indeed.co.za/m/viewjob?jk=7d2aaf37d6aa9199
"Degree from a reputable South African University, No BTECH or Diploma"

"Under 35 years of age"

Also, the job posting reads as though it was written by a 12 year old.

These guys are morons, not the rule.

 

[RezaKhan]

"Under 35 years of age"

Also, the job posting reads as though it was written by a 12 year old.

These guys are morons, not the rule.

Haha - Yes I agree it's terribly written, and I would never apply to a job listing like that.
However that one was found with a quick search just to show to you, there's many more similar to that (better written).

By the way, we also studied data structures, algorithms and even complexity as part of BTECH .