HTML 5 VS Flash

[murraybiscuit]

anyone that can't mention 5 characteristics of html 5 and isn't familiar with as3 isn't really qualified to be having much of a conversation wrt html vs flash.
sorry to sound like a tosser. this debate is getting tired.

 

[ufis]

The problem is getting the millions of XP users to move to other browsers will almost be impossible.

Unfortunately you dont want your website or your clients' website to loose on all those potential visitors / clients.

True, you do not want to show away visitors. But. Most people use IE simply because they do not know any better. They get a PC pre-installed with windows, and just click the icon labled 'Internet'.

The way to get them to change is through information. (Like Google only informing me of chrome browser when I visit them with IE - and not when I do with Firefox.)

When they hit your site show them the bland HTML 4 page, but have a link somewhere saying "This website could look like [enter screenshot of HTML 5 site] if you were using any of these browsers ..."

At some stage people will have to move away from "not using HTML 5 because so many IE8 users cannot view it", the same way people had to move away from designing sites that "is best viewed on 800x600". The sooner it happens, the better.

anyone that can't mention 5 characteristics of html 5 and isn't familiar with as3 isn't really qualified to be having much of a conversation wrt html vs flash.
sorry to sound like a tosser. this debate is getting tired.

Then I can also claim that when someone cannot code java they cannot comment on html 5 vs flash vs java applets. Or we can add Java FX script in there. Or Silverlight.

If you are tired of this debate, feel free not to take part. The rest of us that still have something to discuss can then continue uninterrupted.

 

[murraybiscuit]

okay ppl. pop quiz.
what's the difference between html5, css 3 and javascript?

 

[ufis]

okay ppl. pop quiz.
what's the difference between html5, css 3 and javascript?

Lets start you off with a simpler one: What is the difference between HTML, DHTML and XHTML ?

 

[Raithlin]

The crux of the matter is this: Flash is not going away soon. HTML5+CSS3+Javascript will gradually be used for the more common functions of Flash, but Flash will still (and rightly so) be used both as a fallback for older browsers, as well as for that which it excels at - animation, amongst other things. I'm not talking image replacement, or mouse-overs, either: Flash has a timeline. Nuff said.

I'm looking forward to using HTML5 - in fact, I'm already coding for it (it is backward-compatible, after all). Most elements can be used as is...

 

[FarligOpptreden]

okay ppl. pop quiz.
what's the difference between html5, css 3 and javascript?

WOW! For a moment I thought a bomb was about to explode, then I realized I wasn't watching Speed...

That's really an easy one, you know that: Semantics vs Style vs Behaviour.

Do I get a cookie now?

 

[evilsee]

Fook IE, all you designer folk should just design for the latest browsers out there, its the only way to push things forward.

People must learn to either move browsers or upgrade. My dad who is ancient and still struggling with when to use a right or left mouse button click, asked me the other day what Google Chrome is. If you can discover a new web browser then as far as Im concerned anyone can.

I started messing around with html5 during lunch the other day and this is what I came up with , its rough, but the code is simple and easy. I cant see any one reason why the action script guys cant move over.

Oh and Im sure you all know this already, but big bad google doesn't support ie6 any more and neither should we.

 

[Drake2007]

Not only can one not rely on the figures alone, but as far as I know HTML5 is only compatible with IE9 upwards.
I have IE8 and cannot view HTML5.
Be as it may, IE9 has another problem - XP users cannot make use of IE9. XP users still make up the majority of OS users on the Internet.
So, I agree. Stay away from HTML5 until a bit later when it is more compatible with more OS versions,

W3Counter's stats includes 42462 websites, that's a big enough sample to be accurate, so there's no real reason to worry about IE6 at 4.6% usage.
IE8 supports some of the HTML5 elements, there's a good discussion here.
I don't see MS giving up on XP users, browser market share is important for their future positioning as online marketers with HTML5 being an integral part of that.
It comes down to Windows 7 uptake which has been their fastest selling OS to date, time will tell but either way, technology moves fast so rather lose that wait and see S.A. attitude that also permeates the halls of our disingenuous Telkom and co.

 

[Synaesthesia]

It's not always as clear cut as that. For example you can have Flash content on your page which degrades gracefully to HTML5 for mobile viewers.

 

[hof]

W3Counter's stats includes 42462 websites, that's a big enough sample to be accurate, so there's no real reason to worry about IE6 at 4.6% usage.
IE8 supports some of the HTML5 elements, there's a good discussion here.
I don't see MS giving up on XP users, browser market share is important for their future positioning as online marketers with HTML5 being an integral part of that.
It comes down to Windows 7 uptake which has been their fastest selling OS to date, time will tell but either way, technology moves fast so rather lose that wait and see S.A. attitude that also permeates the halls of our disingenuous Telkom and co.

You need to consider the context of those 42462 webistes. Are the websites visited by the more technically inclined? Are they frequented mostly by US internet users?

The following (global) stats, depict IE6 usage at between 9.5% to 13.1% - a significant proportion of internet users.
http://marketshare.hitslink.com/browser-market-share.aspx?qprid=2&qptimeframe=M
http://gs.statcounter.com/#browser_version-ww-monthly-201006-201006-bar

Most people in corporate envionments have no say in what OS and browser they use. Many legacy intranet apps were designed specifically for IE6, and the cost of upgrading the browser across the organization (although technically free) can be prohibitive.

Microsoft has explicitly said that IE9 will not work on XP. And they will not add new features to IE8. While a subset of HTML5 does work in IE8, it is just that: a subset; far from complete. Canvas and SVG are pivotal technologies within HTML5 - particuarly when viewed in the context of being a "Flash killer".

That being said, I agree with Raithlin. I don't see HTML5 as a replacement for Flash but rather as step towards a better bowser experience - which is what it was designed for. Flash isn't going anywhere for quite some time. While I have seen some impressive HTML5 apps, animations leveraging the flash timeline, effects, etc. are very difficult to emulate in HTML5 and lack the polish.

 

[Raithlin]

Fook IE, all you designer folk should just design for the latest browsers out there, its the only way to push things forward.

People must learn to either move browsers or upgrade. My dad who is ancient and still struggling with when to use a right or left mouse button click, asked me the other day what Google Chrome is. If you can discover a new web browser then as far as Im concerned anyone can.

...

Oh and Im sure you all know this already, but big bad google doesn't support ie6 any more and neither should we.

I wish it were that easy. At the end of the day, the client wants visitors, and if I'm not going to design for his clientelle, he will find someone who will. The best way to design for any browser is using progressive enhancement. Make sure it works on a basic browser, and enhance for the more capable browsers. Makes them all happy, and no need to hack for IE.

 

[midrange]

Fook IE, all you designer folk should just design for the latest browsers out there, its the only way to push things forward.

:erm:

What if your client, all his staff, and probably most of his customers use IE6?

 

[Drake2007]

Yes most people in corporate have no say in the OS and browser. Using that same argument, for security reasons, flash would also be prohibited with its bad track record for having vulnerabilities.

There seems to be some workarounds for canvas and SVG support in IE8. Here's a big killer for flash -

Google has complained that Flash is not open source and its development is not driven by the community.

 

[hof]

Yes most people in corporate have no say in the OS and browser. Using that same argument, for security reasons, flash would also be prohibited with its bad track record for having vulnerabilities.

There seems to be some workarounds for canvas and SVG support in IE8. Here's a big killer for flash -

Flash has 99% desktop market penetration. This figure includes home and corporate users. Mobile devices are ofcourse another story.

Just because Google disagrees with a technology, does not mean there's no place for it. That article is dated June 2009, Google has since voiced it's support for Flash by including the Air runtime in Android (motives aside). Remember that a community driven process (particuarly one that spans multiple vendors) also has it's disadvantages. Getting all parties to agree on a feature and it's implementation is no easy task. Pushing out those new features to end-users even more so. Adobe can add functionality without worrying about community approval and the accompanying politics. Flash adoption is suprisingly quick. Even witin corporate environments.

The fact remains that it will be some time until HTML5 is widely adopted. Until then you can be 99% sure that a desktop client will be able to interpret flash in their browser.

As I said, HTML5 should not be seen as a Flash replacement, but as an improvement to native browser functionality. If anything, it is competition to the Flex/Air runtime. Flash will long have it's use among the designer and, atleast for now, RIA communities.

 

[stopdonotwinddo]

Flash has 99% desktop market penetration. This figure includes home and corporate users. Mobile devices are ofcourse another story.

Just because Google disagrees with a technology, does not mean there's no place for it. That article is dated June 2009, Google has since voiced it's support for Flash by including the Air runtime in Android (motives aside). Remember that a community driven process (particuarly one that spans multiple vendors) also has it's disadvantages. Getting all parties to agree on a feature and it's implementation is no easy task. Pushing out those new features to end-users even more so. Adobe can add functionality without worrying about community approval and the accompanying politics. Flash adoption is suprisingly quick. Even witin corporate environments.

The fact remains that it will be some time until HTML5 is widely adopted. Until then you can be 99% sure that a desktop client will be able to interpret flash in their browser.

As I said, HTML5 should not be seen as a Flash replacement, but as an improvement to native browser functionality. If anything, it is competition to the Flex/Air runtime. Flash will long have it's use among the designer and, atleast for now, RIA communities.

Couldn't have put it better myself.