IAAF new ruling will affect Caster

[maumau]

Heard a chap on the radio saying high/low testosterone levels don't affect men as much as women.

 

[C4Cat]

Testosterone rules: I have offered Caster Semenya my legal team - Dutee Chand

Chand, who successfully challenged a similar ruling in 2015, said she felt for those such as South Africa's Caster Semenya who are likely to be impacted.

"I have offered Semenya my legal team if she needs," said Indian Chand, 22.

"I have emailed her offering my support and help.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/amp/athletics/43918848

 

[Cray]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/apr/29/caster-semenya-the-obvious-target-in-iaaf-changes-that-only-create-a-legal-minefield

Instead of attempting to rid the sport of drug cheats, with many current competitors having served multiple suspensions, the IAAF has instead decided to go after an athlete who has simply committed the crime of being different. Semenya has hyperandrogenism, a condition where the body produces more testosterone than would be usual.

The IAAF argues that her elevated testosterone levels provide her an unfair advantage over other female athletes, however this argument when looked at in the wider picture of elite sport is ridiculous. Should we now do away with 7-foot basketball players as well?

However what the IAAF has done is back itself into a corner in any future debates when it comes to transgender athletes - a topic they are yet to adequately face - while exposing the absurd hypocrisy society as a whole has demonstrated when dealing with those who are transgender.

If the specific targeting of Semenya couldn’t be clearer, the fact that the IAAF ignored research that showed other events were more likely to benefit from elevated testosterone than the 400, 800 and 1500m can only seal the deal. Hammer throw was one such event, however the IAAF chose to not impose any restrictions on those athletes for reasons only known to them.

 

[Cray]

I suspect this is in part due to pressure from the other athletes competing in the same events, as well as their sponsors, threatening to withdraw.

Have heard some grumblings about Caster from some of her competitors, but do you have any sources about sponsors threatening to withdraw?

 

[NiTeD]

They missed an opportunity to set the standards for all pro athletes, instead targeted one person.

 

[Nerfherder]

Why?

Because they are moving the goal posts.

 

[Nerfherder]

Does Caster run and win the 100m?

Why not? Want me to tell you why?

Because she is a medium distance runner ?

 

[Pitbull]

Because she is a medium distance runner ?

And?

The Testosterone advantage she has help her train longer and harder, building more muscle than any other female runner. Thus her advantage is at the longer distances and the reason she's a middle distance runner not a sprinter.

No matter how SJWs try and dress it, she does have a massive advantage, I can see why Dr. Oosthuizen had his objections, but he's a Law educated professional, he has issues with how the tests were done and that the athletes didn't give consent. That he has a point. But Caster is unfortunately competing against women with a man's "body" so to speak. And no matter how you try and dice it, this can not be allowed. Have her testicals removed then, that should solve the problem... o wait, it's not a problem since it's given her an edge...

 

[LCBXX]

Have heard some grumblings about Caster from some of her competitors, but do you have any sources about sponsors threatening to withdraw?

No unfortunately none that I can quote. I personally suspect as much due to understanding a little bit on how sporting disciplines are lobbied/influences by both sponsors and the respective federations.

 

[C4Cat]

And?

The Testosterone advantage she has help her train longer and harder, building more muscle than any other female runner. Thus her advantage is at the longer distances and the reason she's a middle distance runner not a sprinter.

No matter how SJWs try and dress it, she does have a massive advantage, I can see why Dr. Oosthuizen had his objections, but he's a Law educated professional, he has issues with how the tests were done and that the athletes didn't give consent. That he has a point. But Caster is unfortunately competing against women with a man's "body" so to speak. And no matter how you try and dice it, this can not be allowed. Have her testicals removed then, that should solve the problem... o wait, it's not a problem since it's given her an edge...

She doesn't have a 'man's body' so to speak. She has elevated testosterone levels for a woman but would be very low testosterone levels for a man. She still wouldn't be able to compete with men in the same events, she doesn't have that much added strength. And that's the point with athletics is that some athletes have massive natural advantages over their competitors, which tips the balance. Phelps, Bolt, etc are physically unusual and have a natural genetic advantage over their competitors.

 

[Pitbull]

She doesn't have a 'man's body' so to speak. She has elevated testosterone levels for a woman but would be very low testosterone levels for a man. She still wouldn't be able to compete with men in the same events, she doesn't have that much added strength. And that's the point with athletics is that some athletes have massive natural advantages over their competitors, which tips the balance. Phelps, Bolt, etc are physically unusual and have a natural genetic advantage over their competitors.

Wrong, her level of testosterone is on the level of a man. It has already been confirmed. IIRC 7+ per 29.4nmol/L. That is on par with a man. She has Testis in her body. He is a man for all intended purposes apart from her genitalia which is female.

 

[Pitbull]

She doesn't have a 'man's body' so to speak. She has elevated testosterone levels for a woman but would be very low testosterone levels for a man. She still wouldn't be able to compete with men in the same events, she doesn't have that much added strength. And that's the point with athletics is that some athletes have massive natural advantages over their competitors, which tips the balance. Phelps, Bolt, etc are physically unusual and have a natural genetic advantage over their competitors.

Again, the argument is not about elevated testosterone, and you can't compare physical attributes to enhancing stimulants like Testosterone. I heard this stupid argument on the radio this morning about players being told they are too tall for Basket ball. It's not the same thing. It's like comparing apples to oranges. Caster is testis, that is a fact, I think someone actually mentioned it somewhere from her leaked medical records on here.

I have nothing against her as a person, I'm sure she's a brilliant athlete and she has put in the work to get her where she is. The fact is the playing field isn't level, you know that, I know that and the world knows that. We're arguing over the fact that she was born that way and now she's being excluded. Similar to how that Weightlifter who identified as being female competed against female athletes. This is wrong, he too was probably born that way, doesn't mean he should now be allowed to part take against females.

We're crossing a dangerous line here. She already has the advantage there is no way of losing it. If she has her testis removed or uses the testosterone suppressant it will not remove her advantage as it stands. It will however prevent such a person from part taking in the future through the loophole she has come.

I'm sure when doping became an issue loads of people also cried about it. Fact is, it made the future of the sport viable for everyone to compete on a level playing field.

 

[C4Cat]

Wrong, her level of testosterone is on the level of a man. It has already been confirmed. IIRC 7+ per 29.4nmol/L.

If you have a source for that I would appreciate it. That's very high, even for a man

 

[Pitbull]

If you have a source for that I would appreciate it.

I read it somewhere. Dono if on here or somewhere else, will try find something.

 

[Cray]

Wrong, her level of testosterone is on the level of a man. It has already been confirmed. IIRC 7+ per 29.4nmol/L. That is on par with a man. She has Testis in her body. He is a man for all intended purposes apart from her genitalia which is female.

On par with men with the lower levels of testosterone

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/04/26/606039409/iaaf-sets-new-limits-on-testosterone-levels-in-women

The current regulations under which Semenya can compete state give the limit at 10

The new stipulations are stricter than those established by the IAAF in 2011, which limited women's testosterone levels to 10 nanomoles per liter of blood. The new requirements reduce the limit by half to 5 nanomoles per liter.

I can't find anything which shows Semenya's current levels but given that she has been able to compete she must be below 10 currently but above 5.

Meanwhile, the normal male range after puberty is much higher, from 7.7 to 29.4 nanomoles.

So she might equal a male at the lowest level but plenty of males would have far higher testosterone levels than she does.

 

[C4Cat]

Again, the argument is not about elevated testosterone, and you can't compare physical attributes to enhancing stimulants like Testosterone. I heard this stupid argument on the radio this morning about players being told they are too tall for Basket ball. It's not the same thing. It's like comparing apples to oranges. Caster is testis, that is a fact, I think someone actually mentioned it somewhere from her leaked medical records on here.

I have nothing against her as a person, I'm sure she's a brilliant athlete and she has put in the work to get her where she is. The fact is the playing field isn't level, you know that, I know that and the world knows that. We're arguing over the fact that she was born that way and now she's being excluded. Similar to how that Weightlifter who identified as being female competed against female athletes. This is wrong, he too was probably born that way, doesn't mean he should now be allowed to part take against females.

We're crossing a dangerous line here. She already has the advantage there is no way of losing it. If she has her testis removed or uses the testosterone suppressant it will not remove her advantage as it stands. It will however prevent such a person from part taking in the future through the loophole she has come.

I'm sure when doping became an issue loads of people also cried about it. Fact is, it made the future of the sport viable for everyone to compete on a level playing field.

The advantage isn't even that big. This sums it up:

But a closer look at the study reveals that statement is open to interpretation. The French study, conducted by Stéphane Bermon of the University of Nice and funded by the IAAF, analyzed 2,127 tests taken from female and male competitors at the 2011 and 2013 world track championships. Bermon found that women with the highest levels of testosterone performed slightly better (1.78 percent to 2.73 percent) than those who were in the “normal” range. But the study found that the biggest performance differences were between female competitors with high and low T in the pole vault and hammer throw—two events that the IAAF decided not to regulate. At the same time, it found that male pole vaulters and hammer throwers had lower testosterone than the male sprinters. That means that the study shows high levels of testosterone was affecting male and female athletes differently, depending on the event.

To critics of the IAAF decision, that outcome seems fishy. They say the French study shows association between testosterone and performance (in some events) rather than causation. They note that the natural advantage of men over women in these track events is much larger, from 10 to 12 percent.

https://www.wired.com/story/testosterone-ruling-for-athletes-fuels-debate-over-natural-ability/

If her testosterone level made such a big difference as you say, and gave her such a big advantage then she should be able to compete with men, but that's clearly not the case. It's a slight advantage (if any) much like being taller or being double jointed or having unusual body proportions like Phelps

 

[Nerfherder]

Wrong, her level of testosterone is on the level of a man. It has already been confirmed. IIRC 7+ per 29.4nmol/L. That is on par with a man. She has Testis in her body. He is a man for all intended purposes apart from her genitalia which is female.

Elevated testosterone does not make you a man.

 

[konfab]

They missed an opportunity to set the standards for all pro athletes, instead targeted one person.

That is the issue I have with it, it should apply to everything.

If they want to have two different categories of athletes, you need a fair way of discriminating between who can race where.
First step is a chromosome test. That should cover 99.999% of athletes.
If the test is ambiguous (so anything other than X-X or X-Y),or if there is a medical chromosomal defect, then testosterone levels are used. To allocate the group you use the average testosterone levels of each group and assign the group using a least-likelihood method.

That is the only fair way of doing it.

 

[Cray]

https://deadspin.com/the-only-point-of-track-s-dumb-new-testosterone-rules-i-1825546141

The Only Point Of Track’s Dumb New Testosterone Rules Is To Make It Illegal To Be Caster Semenya

But the decade-in-the-making legal standard announced today boils down to Caster Semenya can’t run because she has the characteristics of Caster Semenya. In other words, she’s too good, so she must be stopped. Semenya’s level of dominance isn’t unprecedented in sports; Katie Ledecky, for example, wins races by a far greater margin and occasionally turns in times that would be competitive for elite men. Semenya’s best times would not make her a male star on the NCAA Division III level.

Strange that for all the claims of Caster's testosterone being "on par" with a mans, for all the advantages that supposedly gives her - she is no where close to being competitive with elite male athletes.

 

[Pitbull]

If you have a source for that I would appreciate it. That's very high, even for a man

Best I could find now as all pages on Google is flooded with this new changes

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/04/26/...igibility-regulations-testosterone/index.html

The governing body continued: "Most females (including elite female athletes) have low levels of testosterone circulating naturally in their bodies (0.12 to 1.79 nmol/L in blood); while after puberty the normal male range is much higher (7.7 -- 29.4 nmol/L).

"No female would have serum levels of natural testosterone at 5 nmol/L or above unless they have DSD or a tumour. Individuals with DSDs can have very high levels of natural testosterone, extending into and even beyond the normal male range."

Going by this: 5 is above average for a female. Caster even exceeds that, so it does put her with in male range and the reason for the change.

Just listening to her speak it's obviously clear she's got insane amounts of testosterone in her body. Her voice is deeper than most men I know and she shaves