IMO, the EVEN application of AA is acceptable

[sox63]

Now guys and girls, lets keep this clean and the thread won't be deleted mkay? (That means you Piepalook )

Having been in the ICT industry for just a short while, something has become evident to me, and wanted to get the opinion of the forumites.

Now we always hear that Whites are being excluded from contention for positions, which for me I could not understand until recently. What has been happening is that companies that are seeking to comply with the scorecard do not do so evenly, so end up getting a skewed (sp?) compliance to the regulations. By this I mean their unwillingness to say have significant black equity in their company, leads to excessive compensation in other aspects of the card, like Employment equity, procurement spend and so on.

The companies end up employing ONLY Black people at the lower levels of the company, however management remains the same, with a less than 30% equity share holding. So they do enough to comply, however this scenario breeds contempt from white people as they have to start somewhere too you know, so the young ones tend to not get a look in. In fact my advise to young white people would be to seek out employment with companies that are either Black owned companies or have a significant black shareholding as they are not under the same pressure.

If there was even application of the codes of good practice of BBBEE, then we would not have this situation.

 

[Piepalook]

Now guys and girls, lets keep this clean and the thread won't be deleted mkay? (That means you Piepalook )

Having been in the ICT industry for just a short while, something has become evident to me, and wanted to get the opinion of the forumites.

Now we always hear that Whites are being excluded from contention for positions, which for me I could not understand until recently. What has been happening is that companies that are seeking to comply with the scorecard do not do so evenly, so end up getting a skewed (sp?) compliance to the regulations. By this I mean their unwillingness to say have significant black equity in their company, leads to excessive compensation in other aspects of the card, like Employment equity, procurement spend and so on.

The companies end up employing ONLY Black people at the lower levels of the company, however management remains the same, with a less than 30% equity share holding. So they do enough to comply, however this scenario breeds contempt from white people as they have to start somewhere too you know, so the young ones tend to not get a look in. In fact my advise to young white people would be to seek out employment with companies that are either Black owned companies or have a significant black shareholding as they are not under the same pressure.

If there was even application of the codes of good practice of BBBEE, then we would not have this situation.

ROFLMFAO!

 

[dlk001]

In fact my advise to young white people would be to seek out employment with companies that are either Black owned companies or have a significant black shareholding as they are not under the same pressure.

I've experienced the same issues while working for a certain CSIR Division. Our divisional director and management team were responsible for all the wrongs about transformation by making AA a numbers game to fullfill their skewed objectives. Although there was pressure from CSIR Corporate for a transformation plan with certain targets, the policy never necessitated abuse in its implementation.

I'm not familiar with ITC scorecard but I know the mining scorecard is quiet broad. A lot of junior miners are coping quite well with it.

 

[Lord Anubis]

ken jy n wors masjien??? wat jy onder insit kom bo uit. That's what we whiteys had to go through..6 years + varsity, then 20 years + work to get to the top, by that time you can actually contribute, manage and and value as a Manager.

Now AA wants to put kids at the top and then wreck companies and the economy...AA/EE/BBBEEE...what a joke

 

[xrapidx]

Personally - I struggled my ass off for 3-months before I landed my first job in 2001 (still with the same company), the reason - I'm white. If I ever loose my job, or my contract expires, etc. I will immigrate, I'm not doing to beg anyone to give me a job, they don't like me because of my skin colour, fine.... I know MANY countries who will gladly welcome, and pay well, for my skill-set.

 

[Abe]

In fact my advise to young white people would be to seek out employment with companies that are either Black owned companies or have a significant black shareholding as they are not under the same pressure.

Doesn't work. I used to work for a significantly black owned business and they had a firm policy of not hiring any white blokes.

 

[sox63]

ken jy n wors masjien??? wat jy onder insit kom bo uit. That's what we whiteys had to go through..6 years + varsity, then 20 years + work to get to the top, by that time you can actually contribute, manage and and value as a Manager.

Now AA wants to put kids at the top and then wreck companies and the economy...AA/EE/BBBEEE...what a joke

I have no idea what industry you are speaking of, but in IT top management is VERY white male. Even White women don't really get a look in.

Any opinion on what I asked?

 

[sox63]

Personally - I struggled my ass off for 3-months before I landed my first job in 2001 (still with the same company), the reason - I'm white. If I ever loose my job, or my contract expires, etc. I will immigrate, I'm not doing to beg anyone to give me a job, they don't like me because of my skin colour, fine.... I know MANY countries who will gladly welcome, and pay well, for my skill-set.

If you compare the company you are at now and the ones you were not offered a job, what you have to say about them. BBBEE-wise.

 

[KillerX]

I have never understood BEE and AA. I know the concept. 'Upliftment of previously disadvantaged'. Thats great, really. But no structure on earth do you build from the top down. The only thing you build from the top down is a grave.

I do not know HOW people can be forced into positions (based on skin colour). BEE and AA is being heavily pressed, and YES at senior corporate level its mainly white. But that accounts for 5% of total company structure. Let me tell you, whites are feeling it heavily, dont fool yourself.

How BEE and AA can be so heavily backed, and yet our education system is getting worse and worse (including universities now) astounds me. See this thread:

http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?t=108574&

Its as if goverment doesnt care that people arent getting the right education and skills, but they want these same people in positions of power. HOW DOES THAT WORK?

On the issue of it not being distrubted evenly. Well what do you expect? Let me tell you something you might not know, managers do not care what the person looks like they employ. If hes the right man with the right skills and the right attitude, he will get the job. Simple. Obviously there arent enough black people in senior positions, simply because they dont have the skills for it. Mainly thanks to our goverment dropping standards by so much. The worst thing you can do is try and force quotas. It is really a dumb move.

Eskom is a prime example of this. It was turned 100% into a black owned and run company within 5 years of goverment taking over. It didnt matter that people didnt have skills, hey lets just get them in there right? They will learn as they go along. WRONG! Here we sit years later, and our entire country is suffering because of this stupid move.

 

[xrapidx]

If you compare the company you are at now and the ones you were not offered a job, what you have to say about them. BBBEE-wise.

I think the whole BEE thing is done wrong - you don't just refuse jobs to whites because they're white, you also can't force blacks into management without experience, just cause they black.

What the government is doing is forcing skilled white workers like myself out of the country, then a black guy gets the job, but has no practical experience, so the company goes to ****. I was told a short while ago that I must train a black newbie as he will replace me when my contract expires in December 2007, and I will have to look for a new job... I told them to go stuff themselves, not because I'm racist, but because I'm not going to actively train someone of any skin colour to take my job away from me... needless to say, I just signed a contract extension.

 

[sox63]

I have never understood BEE and AA. I know the concept. 'Upliftment of previously disadvantaged'. Thats great, really. But no structure on earth do you build from the top down. The only thing you build from the top down is a grave.

I do not know HOW people can be forced into positions (based on skin colour). BEE and AA is being heavily pressed, and YES at senior corporate level its mainly white. But that accounts for 5% of total company structure. Let me tell you, whites are feeling it heavily, dont fool yourself.

How BEE and AA can be so heavily backed, and yet our education system is getting worse and worse (including universities now) astounds me. See this thread:

http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?t=108574&

To go into education is not really what this is about, besides, for a black person to have the right amount of experiance and qualifications for a top position now, they would have been in High school and Varsity/Tech in the "old" era. That why if you examine the Black people that are in top management have studied overseas, or have overseas qualification to bolster their SA qualifications.

Its as if goverment doesnt care that people arent getting the right education and skills, but they want these same people in positions of power. HOW DOES THAT WORK?

On the issue of it not being distrubted evenly. Well what do you expect? Let me tell you something you might not know, managers do not care what the person looks like they employ. If hes the right man with the right skills and the right attitude, he will get the job. Simple. Obviously there arent enough black people in senior positions, simply because they dont have the skills for it. Mainly thanks to our goverment dropping standards by so much. The worst thing you can do is try and force quotas. It is really a dumb move.

Eskom is a prime example of this. It was turned 100% into a black owned and run company within 5 years of goverment taking over. It didnt matter that people didnt have skills, hey lets just get them in there right? They will learn as they go along. WRONG! Here we sit years later, and our entire country is suffering because of this stupid move.

The Eskom example only goes to prove the UNEVEN application of AA does not work, as I said.

 

[sox63]

I think the whole BEE thing is done wrong - you don't just refuse jobs to whites because they're white, you also can't force blacks into management without experience, just cause they black.

What the government is doing is forcing skilled white workers like myself out of the country, then a black guy gets the job, but has no practical experience, so the company goes to ****. I was told a short while ago that I must train a black newbie as he will replace me when my contract expires in December 2007, and I will have to look for a new job... I told them to go stuff themselves, not because I'm racist, but because I'm not going to actively train someone of any skin colour to take my job away from me... needless to say, I just signed a contract extension.

Err, you did not answer the question.

 

[Hoof-Hearted]

sox from my experience in it, i agree with what you are saying in principle
the way aa/bbbee has been applied has resulted in skewing of skilled recruitment from the bottom up
the situation has been exacerbated by the number of skilled people (mostly whites) b@ggering off overseas with the resultant loss of skills transfer they take with them
many of the skilled people who remain aren't too keen to share the knowledge they have and who can blame them really ?

that said, i am one whitie who is not upset with the way things have gone.
from a purely financial perspective aa/bee has been very good for me.
the skills and experience i have aquired over the course of my carreer are just not out there in abundance in the market anymore, and as long i'm not after any fancy title, i can earn way more than people who are supposedly my superiors

aa/bbbeee FTW!!

as long as government continues to force the issue and penalise companies based on numbers alone, companies will continue to play the numbers game

 

[xrapidx]

If you compare the company you are at now and the ones you were not offered a job, what you have to say about them. BBBEE-wise.

Err, you did not answer the question.

Whats the actual question? What I have to say about the companies where I didn't get a job?

Not much - all but one are still around. And that one is Old Mutual... guess where I was for the first two years of my employment with the company that took me? Contracted to Old Mutual, probably doing the job I had originally applied for (at 1000% markup)

My first job paid me R27/h in 2001, I was contracted to OM at R350/h.

 

[icyrus]

The focus of transformation should never have been on replacement, but on creation.

 

[xrapidx]

The focus of transformation should never have been or replacement, but on creation.

The government is trying to teach whites a lesson...not create REAL jobs for blacks.... thats the problem... their objective is skewed.

 

[Merlin]

ROFLMFAO!

+1

Doesn't work. I used to work for a significantly black owned business and they had a firm policy of not hiring any white blokes.

You think, a mid-twenties, opportunity-denied White guy will ever get past the door of a majority-Black-owned company?

*lol* Nice joke.

It takes hard work in a FAIR environment, and usually at least 20 years before a junior will get to a decent mid-level, let alone senior-level management position.

I know, I've watched my Father.

Pushing of unskilled and unmotivated young Blacks, due to BEE/AA/whatever the F' you call it, is, and has, resulted in a massive economic crisis in this country.

Yes, ESKOM is a PRIME example of this.

 

[xrapidx]

before I get into any type of argument can I just ask what do you think would be the best way of doing things rather than AA and BEE

I answered that... you need to bring them into the company, and have them go through the normal process of being upskilled by the skilled employees.... not just get rid of all whites at all levels and replace them with blacks.

 

[Nod]

before I get into any type of argument can I just ask what do you think would be the best way of doing things rather than AA and BEE

Make education a priority, and the market will solve the problem itself. People will be employed based on merit only. You will have to start at the bottom, and work your way up.

Sure, this will take time, but it will also be an incentive for people to work harder, because nothing is free. The blacks that finished school in the '90s, could have been helped by government to close the gap in their education.

I'm sure there is a few other ways that it could have been done.

The current AA method forces people into positions they would not have received had they not been a AA candidate. Working according to ratios, will never solve the problem.

How many black pupils passed matric with exemption? What is the percentage of that in relation to the total number of pupils with exemption? That percentage is the only "ratio" that had a chance of working.

 

[Merlin]

If you take note of the news lately, and I will attest to it, there is a rapidly growing resistance to this forced Blac/White issue.

You can NOT force transformation of the mind, or the economy, over a period of 14 years.

I for one know that almost all of my colleagues and friends were nowhere near racist, including myself, in '94. Not that's it's recognized, but many, many Whites did not side with the government policies. There is a problem of growing racism, because the Whites are now criminals. No jobs, no opportunities, no fairness.

A large part of the problem with current failings in the economy, business, and .gov departments is that a majority of the Blacks now occupying these positions are tokens. As with landgrab'ed farms, some do not have the skills, the interest, or the motivation to do work.

The ZA workforce now, is like a spolit child.

If I sit you down, give you everything for nothing, and tell you not to worry, over time, you won't care. If you have choice, you will aspire to what you want, motivate yourself to get it, and know that are and have worked for it and have achieved fairly and on merit.

If the .gov revoked the laws and allowed a free economy, I am 100% confident that given the time, we would have a fair motivated, skilled, and interested workforce.