Oxford actually. So, my having a world class education is reason for me not to voice an opinion? Shame tibby, you feeling a little inferior? Also, how would you know what the ANC cares? It seems the leadership doesn't give a hoot about anyone but themselves anyway - the huge protests over service delivery in the headlines the last few weeks is more than enough evidence thereof.So onse Bobbie van Harvard claims that the ANC is unfit to govern.
Frankly the ANC could care less as nearly 80% of the people of South Africa seem to think otherwise ... so you should get of your high and mighty horse Mr Elitist I went to Harvard and see how the rest of this country feels about the huge improvement to their daily lives.
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Is the ANC successful?
- Thread starter BobbyMac
- Start date
marine1
Honorary Master
Once again, propoganda. 80% of the VOTING public and just remember how many people voted.
chiskop
Executive Member
Well the percentage poll was around 76% in the last national election. The only countries that get a greater turnout are the places where voting is compulsory.
What is your point?
marine1
Honorary Master
76% ? I believe that is absolute rubbish. Please post the link to that official stat.
F
Fudzy
Guest
Who here voted in the last election? marine1? Did you?
marine1
Honorary Master
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/apr2004/safr-a17.shtml
"Growing disaffection with the ANC was reflected in the turnout of about 77 percent (on the latest figures) of registered voters, compared to 89 percent in 1999. As well as the lower turnout, only 75 percent of the 27 million eligible to vote have registered, meaning that overall only 58 percent of those who could vote actually did so, compared to 64 percent in 1999 and 85 percent in 1994. Many commentators have pointed to the lack of interest in the election amongst South Africa’s large youth population, who have been especially hit by unemployment and lack of job opportunities. Only 47 percent of those in the 18-25 age group registered to vote, with two thirds of young people saying they are not interested in official politics."
"Growing disaffection with the ANC was reflected in the turnout of about 77 percent (on the latest figures) of registered voters, compared to 89 percent in 1999. As well as the lower turnout, only 75 percent of the 27 million eligible to vote have registered, meaning that overall only 58 percent of those who could vote actually did so, compared to 64 percent in 1999 and 85 percent in 1994. Many commentators have pointed to the lack of interest in the election amongst South Africa’s large youth population, who have been especially hit by unemployment and lack of job opportunities. Only 47 percent of those in the 18-25 age group registered to vote, with two thirds of young people saying they are not interested in official politics."
marine1
Honorary Master
I have voted in every single election both for presidential and municipal since 1994 and I will continue to do so.
As municipalities and provincial regions are tasked with service delivery, the last municipal elections are probably more relevant. It only saw voter turnout of around 48%.
Is that the turnout percentage of registered voters or of all citizens of voting age?
chiskop
Executive Member
It is the percentage poll. I hadn't read the discussion after marine's query when i posted my answer - which I've since deleted.
So? It is still more than the vast majority of other democracies.
I think that we are getting sidetracked from the main issue though. A two-thirds majority is certainly one measure of success - no matter how many people voted, but that's not what you were asking in your original post.
Obronie's post gave a good list of some other ways of measuring the success of the ANC government (since 1994). Your original post gave a number of failures of the current government - and there is truth in both of those posts.
FWIW, I think that we are in for a torrid time in the run-up to the ANC's national conference at the end of the year, and the elections in 2009. There is not enough external competition for the ANC, and too much internal competition.
marine1: good for you for voting in every election. I firmly believe that not exercising the right to vote means that you lose the right to complain*.
____________________________________________________
*Not in a legal sense, obviously
So? It is still more than the vast majority of other democracies.
I think that we are getting sidetracked from the main issue though. A two-thirds majority is certainly one measure of success - no matter how many people voted, but that's not what you were asking in your original post.
Obronie's post gave a good list of some other ways of measuring the success of the ANC government (since 1994). Your original post gave a number of failures of the current government - and there is truth in both of those posts.
FWIW, I think that we are in for a torrid time in the run-up to the ANC's national conference at the end of the year, and the elections in 2009. There is not enough external competition for the ANC, and too much internal competition.
marine1: good for you for voting in every election. I firmly believe that not exercising the right to vote means that you lose the right to complain*.
____________________________________________________
*Not in a legal sense, obviously
KillerX
Expert Member
First of all, BobbyMac... awesome post.. you are so right.
Is the ANC successful? Nope... I think they do more damage to this country than good. They are only there to line their pockets and enrich themselves... thats all....
Read the news people.. see whats happening in South Africa. We live in a 3rd world country.... meaning we are poor. Hence every cent should be plowed back into our country.. to build it into a great nation... always striving to become a 1st world country... and a power not only in Africa but the world....
Their 'people' are living in squatter camps - yet they spend millions upon millions on changing street names, airports, squares, bridges and everything else with a name.
I read this week that a mayor bought a R700 000 car for himself, while his municipality was bankrupt. Then the ANC responded by saying, they dont mind as long as the car is under R600k. R600k for his car alone. Thats not counting his traveling allowance, entertainment allowance and all that.
This story is not unique... The ANC and their chommies live in absolute luxury. Filling their pockets.... They dont give anything back to the country. They are leeches. I see hospitals rotting. My police station is still working on pen and paper and files.... ITS 2007!
Despite all of this, the ANC will stay in power. "The people" think because they fought for freedom, they automatically govern the country well. They will continue to blame the whites for everything (like zimbabwe).
Is the ANC successful? Nope... I think they do more damage to this country than good. They are only there to line their pockets and enrich themselves... thats all....
Read the news people.. see whats happening in South Africa. We live in a 3rd world country.... meaning we are poor. Hence every cent should be plowed back into our country.. to build it into a great nation... always striving to become a 1st world country... and a power not only in Africa but the world....
Their 'people' are living in squatter camps - yet they spend millions upon millions on changing street names, airports, squares, bridges and everything else with a name.
I read this week that a mayor bought a R700 000 car for himself, while his municipality was bankrupt. Then the ANC responded by saying, they dont mind as long as the car is under R600k. R600k for his car alone. Thats not counting his traveling allowance, entertainment allowance and all that.
This story is not unique... The ANC and their chommies live in absolute luxury. Filling their pockets.... They dont give anything back to the country. They are leeches. I see hospitals rotting. My police station is still working on pen and paper and files.... ITS 2007!
Despite all of this, the ANC will stay in power. "The people" think because they fought for freedom, they automatically govern the country well. They will continue to blame the whites for everything (like zimbabwe).
You really have strong feelings about the ANC don't you?
I disagree with your rather subjective view of the state of SA. I personally feel that there has been a lot of progress made since 94. Least of all the "few" people that you say do not have to walk so far for water. In reality that few is closer to Millions, and in the 14 years an equal number of people have received houses.
I realise that maybe you are far removed from the improved realities of those "few" that you speak of, however, as some1 that grew up in the locations of Bloemfontein, Mafikeng and Thaba Nchu, I can objectively tell you life is a lot better than any of our forefarthers could have imagined. There are those that are still living in shacks in locations and complaining that they might have been better off with apartheid, but IMO they have been lazy in getting off their @sses and grabbing hold of the opportunities presented by the goverment. So now they sit still living in their shacks and look around them and find others are prospering and they need some1 to blame. Heavens forbid they accept their failures and try and make up for what they have missed out on.
I can only tell you of my life and those around me, and to compare where our families are to where they were before the democratic elections, there is the proverbial "Grand Canyon" between then and now. Now before you dismiss my post as just another optimistic Black person that is happy with their existance now and has no idea the problems there are in SA. Let me touch on them and what my opinion of them is:
Crime: I pay very high insurance fees for my car and household becuase I know there are people out there (those lazy ones I refered to earlier) that want the easy way out and turn to crime. Is my fault or the ANCs for that matter that they have made this decision? I don't think so.
I also take comfort that the problems we face in this country are SHARED and not confined to a particular race or geographic area. I have a very simple opinion as to why the countries security forces have battled to cope and that is becuase they have to cover such a massive area of land between themselves. I'm sure you can dig up stats as to how the security forces have grown in 14, however I'm sure if you were totally objective you would agree that it needs to grow 10 or 20 times more, before we can have an internationally accepted ratio of law enforcers to citizens.
Infrastructure: Yet another thorny issue in SA, and there is no easy way out of it, it just needs to be built. A lot of excuses and finger pointing can be done from all sectors of the population as to who is to blame, why not just get with it?
HIV/AIDS: I heard when the teacher told me in middle school about it and thank God she actually showed us people suffering from AIDS, trust me that is a sight that will make put on a condom everytime you want to have sex, it worked and here I am clean as a wistle. Can I also blame the epedemic on laziness as well? Sure can, the messages are everywhere, in every language and every media, anyone that says they do not know what AIDS is just plain stupid and ignorant.
Sox63!
I'm really pleased that you're so positive about your country, it's really good to have someone as patriotic as you. It takes a lot for something to turn a blind eye to reality and be totally ignorant to issues around them, you seem to have mastered that!
Why is that people like yourself settle for second best? Just because your life is better than your forefathers as you put it doesn't mean that you should be all proud and happy about it. Perhaps you should take a step back, look at the world around you, and ask yourself "Does this government really have my best interest at heart?"
You say crime is not your fault and neither the ANC's fault, you are 100% correct it's not. However it is the ANC's fault that nothing is getting done about it. As a government it's their duty to protect their citizens, all that government is doing about the crime level is acknowledging that there is a problem because as long as "they are aware of the situation" things seem fine, because they are coming up with yet another grand plan to resolve the situation. The wonderful thing is, according to the fantastic government and all their great plans for the country I "predict" that in what, 5 years time, we'll be pretty close to a 1st world country? Yeah right!
That is the thing, there are so many promises to everyone and luckily for government there are so many things they can use to distract people from seeing the major issues at hand. Even better than that, if they fail to provide a solution to an issue they always have the fortunate benefit of blaming the old apartheid government. True masterminds!
Provide a little to few, promises to all and you have a happy country. Great job ANC mission accomplished!
Skeptik
Banned
Shame you didn't do any research here. The last government left a world class, fully equipped hospital in the form of the Baragwanath. How quickly did that change - you now have to bring your own sheets!!
As for the Mahatma Gandhi ... that's been in the news recently. I quote "...outbreak of Klebsiella infection in the Neonatal ICU at the hospital. ...the neonatal nursery has been closed completely."
http://www.tac.org.za/nl20060808.html
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20050406081037519C527461
http://www.da.org.za/da/Site/Eng/campaigns/worsthospitals.asp
ToxicBunny
Oi! Leave me out of this...
Oh?.. it did?... hmmm... I missed it.
Skeptik
Banned
Interesting how Bagaloo and all the other ANC NEW APARTHEID apologists always disappear when you tackle them ...
I'm so sick of fake "democracy" ... I agree that when there are only 2 parties to vote on, it is a democracy ... put 1 more party and you lose your democracy. Yes, the party with the most votes will win (or is supposed to win as in some world wide cases) ... but think of it this way:
2 Party Vote:
Party A:40% Party B:60% ... party B wins ... 40% of the country did not want them = democracy.
3 Party Vote
Party A:30% Party B:30% Party C:40% .... Party C wins ... 60% of the country did not want them ... but they still won ... that isn't true democracy ... and thats the biggest problem with this system ... but unfortunately its the "best" system we have.
2 Party Vote:
Party A:40% Party B:60% ... party B wins ... 40% of the country did not want them = democracy.
3 Party Vote
Party A:30% Party B:30% Party C:40% .... Party C wins ... 60% of the country did not want them ... but they still won ... that isn't true democracy ... and thats the biggest problem with this system ... but unfortunately its the "best" system we have.
Oh wait a minute I've got a life also, and commenting on MYADSL is not very high on the list of priorities over the weekend. Expect me to disappear over the weekend but rest assured that I will reappear during the week to tackle you back.
I mentioned M. Gandhi hospital in response to BobbyMac's claim that not a single hospital has been built. I never thought this would end up being a discussion on conditions at state hospitals. Let me say that I don't need to do research to know what that is like. I was once admitted at King Edward hospital.
The prevalence of appalling condiitons at state hospitals is not something new. I don't know about Bara since I grew up in DBN but as far as I know state hospitals have always been characterised by such problems. Prince Mshiyeni memorial and King Edward have always been in a dreadful condition.
Measuring Performance
Thanks BobbyMac, this thread is very interesting.
How do you define success?
This is very interesting. I can think of a number of measures of success offhand. I will list some here:
A Net improvement in living standards
This is probably the loosest measure of success and means that the ANC is successful if the country has marginally improved more than it has gone backwards since 1994.
Success against a pre-judged criteria
This could take the form of measuring success against some criteria. For example comparing South African economic growth against world economic growth or comparing SA GDP/capita growth against world GDP per capita growth, or going into greater details comparing SA improvement in living standards against the world.
These methods fall in the middle and can represent a 'reasonable' measure of success. The only problem is determining what you regard as success.
Success against potential
Here we could ask: 'How well has South Africa grown against its potential for growth. So for example, let's say that South Africa is capable of growing at 10% but only grows at 5%, we could say that the country is probably not successful.
For my own part, I would favour the GDP/capita measure against an international benchmark.
Success of the party vs success of the country
You question posed the question 'Has the ANC been successful?'
rather than 'has the government been successful?'.
This poses the question as to how the party would measure success. Two measures spring to mind:
Percentage of the vote
Here the ANC measures what percentage of voters voted for the ANC in the national election
or
Absolute voting
Here the ANC would measure success against number of voters voting for the ANC between 1994 and now.
I favour absolute figures since it factors in voter apathy.
Internal performance measures
Lastly, the ANC could measure its own performance against criteria that it has set for itself, for example to reduce broadband costs by a certain percentage by a certain date.
My assessment
According to the criteria of GDP/capita growth vs world average, I can only give data for the past couple of years, and cannot guarantee its accuracy however:
World GDP per capita growth around 2.5% http://www.finfacts.com/biz10/globalworldincomepercapita.htm
SA GDP per capita 3% 2004-2005
3.6% 2005-2006
www.resbank.co.za
South Africa is increasing its GDP faster than the world average.
According to the voting figures:
12237655 - Voted ANC 1994 http://www.elections.org.za/Elections94.asp
10880915- Voted ANC in 2004 http://www.elections.org.za/Elections2004_Static.asp
This means that the ANC experienced an 11% decline in voters since 1994.
Internal performance measures: This is tricky and subjective and we don't have access to much of the data. What is certain is the certain departments haven't performed, while others have performed well.
For example the DOC has been many years late in many of its policy implementations most notably the SNO, while the Department of Finance has been very successful in creating a sound budget.
My personal opinion on this (and it is only an opinion) is that for the most part, the ANC would have to have set very low performance standards for it to regard itself as successful.
Conclusion
I have presented a very cursory glance at measuring performance of the ANC. I leave it to my fellow forumites to draw conclusions from these results, and to elaborate on these results further.
Thanks BobbyMac, this thread is very interesting.
How do you define success?
This is very interesting. I can think of a number of measures of success offhand. I will list some here:
A Net improvement in living standards
This is probably the loosest measure of success and means that the ANC is successful if the country has marginally improved more than it has gone backwards since 1994.
Success against a pre-judged criteria
This could take the form of measuring success against some criteria. For example comparing South African economic growth against world economic growth or comparing SA GDP/capita growth against world GDP per capita growth, or going into greater details comparing SA improvement in living standards against the world.
These methods fall in the middle and can represent a 'reasonable' measure of success. The only problem is determining what you regard as success.
Success against potential
Here we could ask: 'How well has South Africa grown against its potential for growth. So for example, let's say that South Africa is capable of growing at 10% but only grows at 5%, we could say that the country is probably not successful.
For my own part, I would favour the GDP/capita measure against an international benchmark.
Success of the party vs success of the country
You question posed the question 'Has the ANC been successful?'
rather than 'has the government been successful?'.
This poses the question as to how the party would measure success. Two measures spring to mind:
Percentage of the vote
Here the ANC measures what percentage of voters voted for the ANC in the national election
or
Absolute voting
Here the ANC would measure success against number of voters voting for the ANC between 1994 and now.
I favour absolute figures since it factors in voter apathy.
Internal performance measures
Lastly, the ANC could measure its own performance against criteria that it has set for itself, for example to reduce broadband costs by a certain percentage by a certain date.
My assessment
According to the criteria of GDP/capita growth vs world average, I can only give data for the past couple of years, and cannot guarantee its accuracy however:
World GDP per capita growth around 2.5% http://www.finfacts.com/biz10/globalworldincomepercapita.htm
SA GDP per capita 3% 2004-2005
3.6% 2005-2006
www.resbank.co.za
South Africa is increasing its GDP faster than the world average.
According to the voting figures:
12237655 - Voted ANC 1994 http://www.elections.org.za/Elections94.asp
10880915- Voted ANC in 2004 http://www.elections.org.za/Elections2004_Static.asp
This means that the ANC experienced an 11% decline in voters since 1994.
Internal performance measures: This is tricky and subjective and we don't have access to much of the data. What is certain is the certain departments haven't performed, while others have performed well.
For example the DOC has been many years late in many of its policy implementations most notably the SNO, while the Department of Finance has been very successful in creating a sound budget.
My personal opinion on this (and it is only an opinion) is that for the most part, the ANC would have to have set very low performance standards for it to regard itself as successful.
Conclusion
I have presented a very cursory glance at measuring performance of the ANC. I leave it to my fellow forumites to draw conclusions from these results, and to elaborate on these results further.