doobiwan
Executive Member
I 'want' to support them, but they have to make me want to support them.
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ISP with own ADSL Authentication be warned
- Thread starter paarlberg
- Start date
Kalvaer
Expert Member
While in Ekaterinburg last year, I was able to go to the local corner shop, and buy ADSL "air time cards", exactly the same as pay as you go cell phone users do. Buy the card, scratch off the numbers, login to their website, fill in the details and off you go. Hit your cap and it shuts you down, redirecting you to their main page, just as Roman said... So why the hell cant Telkom and everyone else do this?
Kalvaer said:
Telkom will be doing some of it, come 1st November (baring ICASA doing something) you will now be cut off when you hit your cap.
Actaully the wireless hotspots work like that. You find a hotspot connect and as soon as you try to open a webpage it'll direct you thru to where you can register/pay.
See...Telkom CAN take steps forward.
Kalvaer
Expert Member
OK so then if they can do this.. WHY THE HELL do we need 12 hour resets.. I would still like to know if I will be told when this 12 hour reset is.. and If I will be refunded for the 500 megs of Data I was updating to my website that now has to be resubmitted because Telkom reset my line!
As far as I know, the 12 hours reset is based on the time you reset your router/connection.. If you reset at 08:00 then Telkom will force it to reset at 20:00 if it hasn't been disconnected since 08:00. In otherwords, your connection can be up for +/- 43200 seconds..
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Kalvaer
Expert Member
And what if what you are doing takes longer than 12 hours? While I do not use P2P AT ALL... there are other reason where you could have to do something that takes longer than 12 hours.. something that cant be resumed.. in that case.. what do you do... Bend over???
TheRoDent
Cool Ideas Rep
Apparently ISP's will be allowed, via a custom Radius value-pair, to be able to determine the next session timeout for an ADSL customer.
This may mean that when you're getting closer to your 'cap' you ISP may set smaller session timeouts, e.g. 2 hours, for your connection, just so they may receive an accurate accounting update.
Any ISP that does this of course, would suck. Since as paarlberg pointed out, SAIX ISP's would not be held hostage to this level of ridiculousness in trying to determine when a customer may have used up his gig allowance.
I still see a serious case for the competition comission in all of this.
This may mean that when you're getting closer to your 'cap' you ISP may set smaller session timeouts, e.g. 2 hours, for your connection, just so they may receive an accurate accounting update.
Any ISP that does this of course, would suck. Since as paarlberg pointed out, SAIX ISP's would not be held hostage to this level of ridiculousness in trying to determine when a customer may have used up his gig allowance.
I still see a serious case for the competition comission in all of this.
daysleeper
Senior Member
Wtf?
Paarlberg said:
ISPs aggree with the per gig pricing so that they can get business back from All you can eat and axxess ect.
This would even the playing field. So they encouraged it and now they sit with a problem!
"more specialized" means more expensive too!
I think telkom are very stupid, but they don't need any encouragement from the private sector thank you!
The ISPs don't loose the consumer does. The worst thing is that a commidity is not being consumed, its just data guys! electrons! Wake up!!!!
Paarlberg said:
ISPs aggree with the per gig pricing so that they can get business back from All you can eat and axxess ect.
This would even the playing field. So they encouraged it and now they sit with a problem!
"more specialized" means more expensive too!
I think telkom are very stupid, but they don't need any encouragement from the private sector thank you!
The ISPs don't loose the consumer does. The worst thing is that a commidity is not being consumed, its just data guys! electrons! Wake up!!!!
mithrandi
Well-Known Member
Out of interest, why don't any of them do this? Surely it would be an attractive option for some?
mithrandi said:
We will be releasing a new product that is DigiNet based (I can hear people screaming high line rental already). It will be for companies that are outgrowing ADSL, but can't afford normal DigiNet prices.
Since DigiNet is typically more stable and you can have a static IP it is great for the SME market. It won't be something for the residential market.
We should release the product before the end of the year, hopefully by November 1.
Kalvaer
Expert Member
No offence Paarlberg, but what about your current customers. Is part of marketing not keeping your current client base happy before you try target more groups, The best form of advertising is word of mouth.
But I guess ADSL home users just dont feature in anyones books anymore. Rather than fighting telkom for what is right, everyone just backs down and lets them walk over everyone... Can anyone please tell me honestly which ISP ANYWHERE else in the world has 12 hour resets
Can you also tell me (even though I know the answer) if my Fiance is downloading a 1,2 gig file via SSH from her work in the USA and I get reset on 99% will I get given my 1.1999 gigs back since YOU shut me down, or would you supply the vaseline?
But I guess ADSL home users just dont feature in anyones books anymore. Rather than fighting telkom for what is right, everyone just backs down and lets them walk over everyone... Can anyone please tell me honestly which ISP ANYWHERE else in the world has 12 hour resets
Can you also tell me (even though I know the answer) if my Fiance is downloading a 1,2 gig file via SSH from her work in the USA and I get reset on 99% will I get given my 1.1999 gigs back since YOU shut me down, or would you supply the vaseline?
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No offence - but really, companies outgrowing ADSL, what will we hear next. Only in SA where you will hear a silly statement like this. Maybe we should first get decent ADSL before we can start claiming we're outgrowing it. But I must say I happy to see how far more advance we are.paarlberg said:
Everyone just wants more and more money. Rape the consumer a little bit more. For pete sake, I wish Telkom, etc can provide a decent service so people cant make claims about outgrowing ADSL.
**** they robbed me in the UK - The audacity of asking me 24 pounds a month for a 2 Meg ADSL line uncapped/unshaped and a freaking cheek of adding 2.99 pound extra per month for a static IP.
Now, I’m not of those screaming and shouting that we should have the same prices, as I know there are other factors playing a roll. Just give us better prices and a service good enough so companies doesn’t outgrow ADSL (I still find this most interesting).
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sh1 said:
SH1, I agree!!!. Paarlberg, if anything is to be considered "outgrowing ADSL" it should be in terms of fibre to your doorstep. Telkom's bloody strategy is to get everyone (well they don't care about the customers only businesses who depend on communications for... business) forking out obscene amounts of money for diginet lines INSTEAD of cheaper ADSL lines which appear to be the global trend (oh yes, except for SA). There was another thread (very recently) where they switched from 256k leased line to something like 10-15 ADSL lines/accounts and it was OBSCENELY CHEAPER than the bloddy leased line.
FACTS speak louder than an argument:
0,2% of SA population has internet access (broadband?)
70% of SA population doesn't have phone lines
Come Nov 1 a 30GB ADSL account will cost you R2000+/mo as compared internationl trends where it costs R200/mo
I'm sorry if you're in it soley for the money AT THE CUSTOMERS expense, then you're just as bad as Telkom.
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One thing here is people confuse Telkom with the ISP. Telkom does the resets, not the ISP (in most cases). The ISP is limited by the product that Telkom allows you to sell.
We do target both the ADSL and Lease Line market. In the US the trend is residential and small businesses use ADSL and companies that depend on the connectivity being up use lease lines. We have seen many clients that went from LL to ADSL and are back on LL again due to the stability and overall performance difference.
If you look thru the forums, stability is one of the largest complaints about Telkom's ADSL (behind price and cap).
We are in business to make money, just as any other ISP or business. However, we also look at the support costs and quality of the services we provide. Lease Lines in most cases have lower support issues than ADSL. The ADSL product that telkom has released in SA is not for businesses due to the limitations with DynIP, resets, cap, etc.. There is currently no way around the Telkom product shortcomings..
Do you want a business class service or residential at your office? If you can settle with a residential class, then you can accept the headaches with that service (see above reference to the difference between Telkom and ISP). If you need 24x7x365 connectivity and some level of QoS, SLA, or service, you need a Lease Line connection. That is also the way it is looked at in the US and most parts of the world. Any ISP will prioritize their support to its clients that have guarantees, so the farther down the list your service is, the lower the priority.. ADSL is in (or just above) the dial-up level.. Especially in the market controlled by Telkom.
Broadband was designed for higher speeds at a lower cost and typically no SLA (some SDSL and similar services do have an SLA), regardless of what country you are in. Lease Lines are designed for business services. If your business depends on the connection being up 24x7 and some guarantees, get a lease line..
As far as outgrowing ADSL, the fact that you have it instead of a dialup conneciton should give you some insight in to that scenario/answer.. The hope of no dropped calls, better bandwidth, etc.. xDSL is not the final answer to bandwidth, there are bandwidth options above xDSL.
We do target both the ADSL and Lease Line market. In the US the trend is residential and small businesses use ADSL and companies that depend on the connectivity being up use lease lines. We have seen many clients that went from LL to ADSL and are back on LL again due to the stability and overall performance difference.
If you look thru the forums, stability is one of the largest complaints about Telkom's ADSL (behind price and cap).
We are in business to make money, just as any other ISP or business. However, we also look at the support costs and quality of the services we provide. Lease Lines in most cases have lower support issues than ADSL. The ADSL product that telkom has released in SA is not for businesses due to the limitations with DynIP, resets, cap, etc.. There is currently no way around the Telkom product shortcomings..
Do you want a business class service or residential at your office? If you can settle with a residential class, then you can accept the headaches with that service (see above reference to the difference between Telkom and ISP). If you need 24x7x365 connectivity and some level of QoS, SLA, or service, you need a Lease Line connection. That is also the way it is looked at in the US and most parts of the world. Any ISP will prioritize their support to its clients that have guarantees, so the farther down the list your service is, the lower the priority.. ADSL is in (or just above) the dial-up level.. Especially in the market controlled by Telkom.
Broadband was designed for higher speeds at a lower cost and typically no SLA (some SDSL and similar services do have an SLA), regardless of what country you are in. Lease Lines are designed for business services. If your business depends on the connection being up 24x7 and some guarantees, get a lease line..
As far as outgrowing ADSL, the fact that you have it instead of a dialup conneciton should give you some insight in to that scenario/answer.. The hope of no dropped calls, better bandwidth, etc.. xDSL is not the final answer to bandwidth, there are bandwidth options above xDSL.
Kalvaer
Expert Member
Well firstly from the business perspective I can understand. Having cheaper leased lines is very promising, Of cause I do not know any SME that can afford those prices unless they are a Internet related company.. Maybe I'm wrong?paarlberg said:
With regards to " No way around Telkom " Why? All the ISP's buy from Telkom, Then resell to us. If we have a problem, it is hard to go to the wholesalers and moan, we have to go to the middleman.. that is you! There are far less middlemen out there who telkom basically can not do with out, If you all stand together Telkom would have to react.. Why cant/wont you all.
Its also been stated that the ISP should be able to set their own time out? is this true. Because then I'm not confused at all between Telkom and the ISP's. If they cant then its a misunderstanding not confusion. I can also understand that if you set big time out's then you are viable for abuse that I fully understand certain people will do (most unfortunately on this forum). But it has also been stated that there is equipment and software available to over come this. Can the ISP's not demand this from telkom? I think you all could, but its a matter of.. do we really want to take the risk of losing money to force telkom to give our customers a better service.. or do we just shut up, and shove the blame onto Telkom.. Everyone hates them anyway and will share our pain <Insert Doctor Evil, and Mini Me laughter here>
I actually think the idea of charging people over their 3 gig cap is a DAMN good idea. I have seen people here state that its bull, and agree to an extent, But we are not all children (granted some are), and everyone watches their bandwidth like a hawk anyway. So what will be different. On my website run in the states, I have 30 gigs of available bandwidth. If I use 40 gigs for the month, I get charged for the extra 10 (at $5 per gig) So why not here, I don’t get an email telling me to shut my website down, its just done. Its in my contract and I signed and agree with it. Its not Caltex/Sasol/BP's responsibility to tell me when I'm going to run out of petrol, and I cant blame them when I sit on the side of the road with out petrol. Though I guess they also wont charge me extra when I do hit my fuel tanks cap??
The ISP's have more ways of bargaining with Telkom than we do... Why don’t you all?
PS: Please note as stated as well by Antowan, I'm not picking on Paarlberg but all the ISP. Paarlberg is just decent enough to talk to to us lowly customers
RoosTa
Expert Member
But your car tank still has a limit, which is the size of the tank meaning once you have reached your limit, your car will stop working.
I cannot believe that people are still thinking backwards...
People want security, but people with kids will loose that security, because the ISP's and Telkom are too damn lazy (or know they can always make an extra buck). A limit is required, cel phone companies do it, Telkom do it to your voice line and you can specify that cap - at least give people the option. But now just because someone's kid accidently left the download program runnning overnight why do the parents need to pay for this? Kids will be kids. Hell, even my girlfriend doesn't know what a megabyte is - how are they suppose to know what the limit is? If software can prevent this why can't Telkom simply use a little bit of their profit to implement a proper sytem? IS said it can be done and its up to the ISP's to fight for their customers, not just pass the blame. I'd refuse to pay anything over 3gig, if I had paid for 3 gig and expect that the ISP will not charge me for more - they should be responsible for cutting my connection when I reach my agreed cap. Just like my car would cut out if I had no petrol.
Besides, I'm sure I'm not the only one that needs to budget ahead. I like to know my budget BEFORE the month even starts and an extra R90 for using 1 meg over 3gig is no joke.
Telkom and ISP's know they'll make extra cash in situation like this, thats why they won't fight this.
This whole pay per gig thing is huge step backwards. Flat rate is the future. Security is what people want.
Now that security and quality of life will be taken from me from 1st Nov. I WILL cancel my ADSL line.
PS Thanks paarlberg for being the only active ISP rep here.
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Kalvaer
Expert Member
Thats exactly what the last line of where you quoted me saidLaRoosTa said:
Which is why we all choose ADSL and which was the marketing idea behind it all (the budget part) As to the last 4 statements.. thats again what I said!LaRoosTa said:
My point was that It was said the ISP's can do it, and they dont seem to want to (as we both said and why since they can all make more money off us) WHY? If that is the case, I would rather it be that way than 12 hour resets which is BS. I'm lucky enough that I dont have kids yet, and my Fiance is clued up on PC's and monitors her downloads more than I do. While I do feel it is not the ISP's move to educate our kids, and better halfs (same as my petrol station analogy which was want I meant.. I know there are tons of loop holes to it that you can explain, like if tell the attendant to put in R100, and he puts in R110, your still gonna pay R100.), I do believe we should have the choice. I would much rather be cut off at 3 gigs than have a virus hit my system and use 40 gigs and have sell my soul to repay it.
Last night I wanted to download a Rogue Video made up by somebody for WoW. Shut down my modem, restarted it. Started the download (it was 400 megs) and went to sleep.. You do know right that this morning I woke up to find my modem had reset at 2:00 am at 300 megs... I'm sorry but that is unacceptable .. 12 hour resets will be even worse..
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