Java Question

[JerryMungo]

Hi Alternate,

I have actually been tempting junior Java dev's to Cape Town all year , but I can't seem to find intermediates and up! I may have to start visiting people at home, bearing plates of cookies...

We should really get together as recruiters and start our own talent and headhunting site... Invitation only. What thinks you guys? Cv swapping and all that. Sounds borderline dodge hahaha

 

[lucifir]

So, if I understand correctly, at senior level, one expects to be paid one's worth, and salary expectation is not required. I am sure that most seniors are no-nonsense, part and parcel, and the reason why I am doing this research, to not waste my time, or anyone else's.

And on that note, thank you for you kind help, I appreciate it very much!

Maybe I was not clear, but I did not say salary was not required, but in the email subject I would keep it simple and to the point.
In the actual message I would expect as much detail as you can provide, but salary would be key

Glad to be of assistance, and so glad to hear that there are still recruiters out there that actually understand the process and has the willingness to understand her clientele.
Good luck with your search, let me know when you in the durban area as I would rather deal with an agent like you than any others I have dealt with thus far

 

[aigle2am]

Master of darkness,

As an ex-vaalie, I can promise you that there is plenty of incentives here (If you look past the traffic, out towards the mountain and across the sea ) BUT I have to add that the financial issues, well they do exist, but, there are also plenty of firms who are willing & able to pay "joburg"'salaries. Generally, higher roles like that will be a head-hunt, rather than sourcing. I have 10 open roles across the IT field taht you will never see advertised. That is because I find people, I don't fill roles :twisted:, aren't I?

I am glad you want to find people, not fill roles. I am a junior java developer and I will admit tempting an intermediate/senior developer is not an easy task. However, I would advise starting with developers with atleast a two years experience (not necessarily with java). They will not be as raw as a fresh graduate but can still be molded as required. I am based in Cape Town, and trust me there are lots of junior developers around.

 

[noob_saibot]

Hello the Forum,

I have been busy experimenting, and putting into practice all your advice with great success. I am finding the people I engage with are more open to speaking to me more. So, please can you answer this question?

My trouble is finding Java programmers from junior through to mid/senior. Why is Java such a scarce skill in SA? Where can I find career-minded Java profesionals? I'm stumped

It's not that Java is scarce, it's that companies don't want just any guy that can write a couple of lines in Java, they all want the analytical supernovas.

Here's some advice I might point out that the others haven't mentioned:

• Don't look for Java developers specifically. Look for competent developers that know at least 1 OO language thoroughly. This can be C, C++, Python, Ruby or (dare I say it) PHP.
• If the programmer is competent enough and knows their stuff in this language, then any smart company would invest a little time for this guy to pickup Java (which shouldn't take long, if above competencies are met).
• The thing about (especially) seniors is that they no longer have incentive to move after a while (salaries do get capped).
• The money should eventually hover around a certain amount (I'm thinking 800k-1M), so you'll probably need to get your companies to offer them other incentives. Work from home (part-time) is a big winner.
• Also, a great and talented developer is not always a great Project Manager or system architect, so be wary of recruiting them for those types of positions, cause they may be highly incompetent to lead others.
• Also, developers are advised to change jobs frequently in the beginning, so they can max out their earning potential quickly. Doing this helps them build up big informal networks and they'll probably prefer joining their buddy at Big Blue Chip A with a signup bonus of R50K (to go holiday in Asia) then they might consider taking an offer from random recruiter with title: My company is offering ...
• Lastly (and perhaps somewhat important): with scarce skills, developers can be picky about who they work for. Some may have moral issues against certain companies and you'll never recruit them to those openings.

Ehh, recruiters though... there have been some nightmare stories.

 

[noob_saibot]

Scarce skill and you will struggle finding people where the actual value proposition is right. Most mid-level Java candidates I interviewed, lacked the skill and experience and would not even pass a Oracle Java Associate exam.

I have stopped looking for skilled people and for the last 14 months have hired interns and all started off without any Java knowledge, have gone through the full Oracle certs and are now more productive than some of the staff I hired and eventually had to let go during the probationary period due to skill issues.

Although a company spends significantly more time and effort in the ramp-up, hiring interns and upskilling them seems to be the only viable option for at least me. Failing to see why I would hire snr Java candidates for over 50K when any of my juniors can code circles around them

I remember this very well. We had a mini-language war whilst you were looking for them interns. I like your thinking though, as I don't think any other companies are willing to invest that much time in training. I assume that with the contract lock-ins, you get to keep these competent okes for a long while too.

Apart from the contracts though, do these guys show more loyalty to BorB because you've invested in them? #Sorry for thread hijack#(you can PM me the answer if you like, as I don't think you'd want to upset any of your employees who might read this )

 

[sumacveneneux]

We should really get together as recruiters and start our own talent and headhunting site... Invitation only. What thinks you guys? Cv swapping and all that. Sounds borderline dodge hahaha

You know, that's not actually a bad idea - we need a few revolutionaries to turn this thing around! My idea is a little different though - I believe that IT sourcers should not be recruiters, but consultants who specialise in areas - like JAVA, C#, PHP, .NET. etc. Reasoning? Although the tech interlink on many levels, the background tech determines suitability for a role. If consultants each have a some candidates they know well, and there is integrity involved, the IT guys don't get bothered by 20 recruiters posting the same job, they get an email from their consultant who knows what they earn, where they are in heir career, and where they want to work. And you share the income. This is what will separate the successful and the failed in the future. Recruiters are client focused, consultants should be person focused. Just my 2 cents on the matter (as an outsider of sorts )

 

[sumacveneneux]

Maybe I was not clear, but I did not say salary was not required, but in the email subject I would keep it simple and to the point.
In the actual message I would expect as much detail as you can provide, but salary would be key

Glad to be of assistance, and so glad to hear that there are still recruiters out there that actually understand the process and has the willingness to understand her clientele.
Good luck with your search, let me know when you in the durban area as I would rather deal with an agent like you than any others I have dealt with thus far

The salary will definitely make up the body of the message. Though, once you reach a certain level, you dictate your earnings, as any other specialist. On this level, you would probably contact your consultant (who will know what you want, and tell them to start looking around) No mess, no fuss.

And as for Durbs - I will probably go in search of heat and sun (and talented people) in June/July

 

[sumacveneneux]

I am glad you want to find people, not fill roles. I am a junior java developer and I will admit tempting an intermediate/senior developer is not an easy task. However, I would advise starting with developers with atleast a two years experience (not necessarily with java). They will not be as raw as a fresh graduate but can still be molded as required. I am based in Cape Town, and trust me there are lots of junior developers around.

Hi aigle2am,

Thanks for your advice,What you say, makes sense and I will certainly take it into account. I find that I am placing people who have years of coding but who are considered junior in java, in java Intermediate and even senior roles. It all depends on the person's skill. This is why I dislike contacting people with specific roles, I would rather fit the role to the person and contact them only when I have the their perfect opportunity or if they contact me and tell me to look out for them.

 

[sumacveneneux]

It's not that Java is scarce, it's that companies don't want just any guy that can write a couple of lines in Java, they all want the analytical supernovas.

Here's some advice I might point out that the others haven't mentioned:

• Don't look for Java developers specifically. Look for competent developers that know at least 1 OO language thoroughly. This can be C, C++, Python, Ruby or (dare I say it) PHP.
• If the programmer is competent enough and knows their stuff in this language, then any smart company would invest a little time for this guy to pickup Java (which shouldn't take long, if above competencies are met).
• The thing about (especially) seniors is that they no longer have incentive to move after a while (salaries do get capped).
• The money should eventually hover around a certain amount (I'm thinking 800k-1M), so you'll probably need to get your companies to offer them other incentives. Work from home (part-time) is a big winner.
• Also, a great and talented developer is not always a great Project Manager or system architect, so be wary of recruiting them for those types of positions, cause they may be highly incompetent to lead others.
• Also, developers are advised to change jobs frequently in the beginning, so they can max out their earning potential quickly. Doing this helps them build up big informal networks and they'll probably prefer joining their buddy at Big Blue Chip A with a signup bonus of R50K (to go holiday in Asia) then they might consider taking an offer from random recruiter with title: My company is offering ...
• Lastly (and perhaps somewhat important): with scarce skills, developers can be picky about who they work for. Some may have moral issues against certain companies and you'll never recruit them to those openings.

Ehh, recruiters though... there have been some nightmare stories.

Hi noob_saibot,

Thank you for your very valuable advice, I would answer each point with "yes", and "I agree"! Especially about the capped salaries, about the increase in yearly salaries (which employers will have to do in Silicon Cape!) - though as a side note, I know for a fact that the larger nationals are paying that - even in Cape Town. And I also know that the Mavericks don't want to for in soul-deadening bureaucracies, and some people don't like consulting anyway. So my first responsibility will always be to fir the person to the role.

I also want to add that IT is so exciting, because it is a growing career-path. All the other - Accounting, Legal, Engineering etc - are old and have set rules and seniority levels right to retirement, IT is still getting there. This is why the people who source you need to grow and change with you, so we can all have career-paths in the decades to come. (I sometimes feel like Livingstone )

 

[systemofpurplelimpminion]

Hello the Forum,

I have been busy experimenting, and putting into practice all your advice with great success. I am finding the people I engage with are more open to speaking to me more. So, please can you answer this question?

My trouble is finding Java programmers from junior through to mid/senior. Why is Java such a scarce skill in SA? Where can I find career-minded Java profesionals? I'm stumped

Primarily because of the school system starting the programming education with ancient languages such as pascal or OO version Delphi. That and the fact that everything including programming languages are cyclical ie what ever was/is popular at that stage gets the most attention

 

[sumacveneneux]

Primarily because of the school system starting the programming education with ancient languages such as pascal or OO version Delphi. That and the fact that everything including programming languages are cyclical ie what ever was/is popular at that stage gets the most attention

Hmmm, succinct food for thought, thanks! I wonder what the next big thing will be?

 

[aigle2am]

I would also add that it is critical that the CV be read before one contacts a developer for a role. Its extremely annoying to get a role requiring 5 years experience yet you only have 2 years or a senior role for a recent graduate.

 

[sumacveneneux]

I would also add that it is critical that the CV be read before one contacts a developer for a role. Its extremely annoying to get a role requiring 5 years experience yet you only have 2 years or a senior role for a recent graduate.

Again, I agree wholeheartedly, however, in order for an agent to not call people willy-nilly, said agent will need to get hold of the cv's first, and therein lies the conundrum